[INFJ] Ti scrutiny of Ni insights

[la boheme]

As a Ti-dom, I enjoy the company of P-doms whose perceptions stimulate and feed my thoughts. I'm particularly interested in Ni insights since they can appear to come out of nowhere and sometimes be quite prescient. However, they often fall far short of their marks, too. Either way, my inclination is to examine the insights to see if they make sense. I understand you do this with your tertiary Ti function. My question is, how do (or would) you react to sharing your insights with a Ti-dom whom you know is going to question your every utterance? Do you welcome this scrutiny? Or does the very idea repel you? I ask because I can see this as one deal-breaker in any close relationship with an INFJ.

 

[Erlian]

I might not be a stereotypical INFJ, but I'd love that. I might not be Ti-dom, but my Ti is strong enough. I always scrutinise my Ni pops and love it if others are willing to help me with that. It might get tiring, especially as I can't always properly explain Ni pops, so a questioning Ti-dom might not 'see' it the way I do and there's no way I can make that clear.

 

[Elis]

I don't really mind being questioned. As long as I've given myself the time to think it true then I don't think there would be much of a problem.

Though I can be both a very private and a very open person, so it pretty much depends on how we get off (and what insight).


Then again, I might not even be an INFJ.

 

[just me]

Just don't think about it too hard.

 

[Solongo]

As a Ti-dom, I enjoy the company of P-doms whose perceptions stimulate and feed my thoughts. I'm particularly interested in Ni insights since they can appear to come out of nowhere and sometimes be quite prescient. However, they often fall far short of their marks, too. Either way, my inclination is to examine the insights to see if they make sense. I understand you do this with your tertiary Ti function. My question is, how do (or would) you react to sharing your insights with a Ti-dom whom you know is going to question your every utterance? Do you welcome this scrutiny? Or does the very idea repel you? I ask because I can see this as one deal-breaker in any close relationship with an INFJ.

It gets exhausting after a while. Trying to constantly quantify that which is mysterious and unexplainable gets boring after a while. Like somehow imagination and the mysteries of the universe all need to be scientifically broken down into scientific hypothesis. This shows lack of acceptance of the mysterious and beautiful aspect of humanity and to a certain degree it just needs to be accepted. To me it shows their lack of connection to their intuition and the overdevelopment of their Ti function. it should be a healthy balance on a continuum and not extremes of either you are Ti or Ni. The real enlightened person would use both functions necessitated by the situation.

 

[la boheme]

It gets exhausting after a while. Trying to constantly quantify that which is mysterious and unexplainable gets boring after a while. Like somehow imagination and the mysteries of the universe all need to be scientifically broken down into scientific hypothesis. This shows lack of acceptance of the mysterious and beautiful aspect of humanity and to a certain degree it just needs to be accepted. To me it shows their lack of connection to their intuition and the overdevelopment of their Ti function. it should be a healthy balance on a continuum and not extremes of either you are Ti or Ni. The real enlightened person would use both functions necessitated by the situation.

I don't think everything can be explained; however, the things that can't be explained I don't accept on faith since that would be irrational. So I'm perfectly happy to conclude your Ni insight is a mystery, but I'd be quite unhappy if I was expected to believe it the way many Ni users believe their insights. That's where I've had disagreements with Ni-doms before. They dislike being told they're irrational. I imagine you wouldn't like it, either.

 

[Solongo]

I don't think everything can be explained; however, the things that can't be explained I don't accept on faith since that would be irrational. So I'm perfectly happy to conclude your Ni insight is a mystery, but I'd be quite unhappy if I was expected to believe it the way many Ni users believe their insights. That's where I've had disagreements with Ni-doms before. They dislike being told they're irrational. I imagine you wouldn't like it, either.

I am beyond categorizing myself as rational or irrational. It does nothing for me. But then again I do have faith and faith is the belief in the mysterious. I don't need scientific proof or logical explanation of something mysterious in order for me to accept it into my belief system. The great mysteries of the life is meant to be experienced in order to be understood. No amount of logical dissection or debate will reveal the mystery that can only be experienced in order to be understood.

 

[la boheme]

I might not be a stereotypical INFJ, but I'd love that. I might not be Ti-dom, but my Ti is strong enough. I always scrutinise my Ni pops and love it if others are willing to help me with that. It might get tiring, especially as I can't always properly explain Ni pops, so a questioning Ti-dom might not 'see' it the way I do and there's no way I can make that clear.

It can get tiring for the Ti-dom, too, especially when it becomes apparent there is no way to explain the Ni insight but the Ni-dom insists it's true. Or worse, when there is evidence to contradict the insight, but the Ni-dom nevertheless continues to insist on its truth. That's where the potential conflicts arise.

Might I ask you what your experience is with being presented with evidence that contradicts your insights? Do you accept the evidence and admit you're wrong? Or do you continue maintaining you are right? I'm sorry to say I've seen Ni-doms (INTJs) do the latter ten too many times.

 

[la boheme]

I am beyond categorizing myself as rational or irrational. It does nothing for me. But then again I do have faith and faith is the belief in the mysterious. I don't need scientific proof or logical explanation of something mysterious in order for me to accept it into my belief system. The great mysteries of the life is meant to be experienced in order to be understood. No amount of logical dissection or debate will reveal the mystery that can only be experienced in order to be understood.

Does it matter to you if your significant other or close friends don't share your beliefs or faith? You've already stated you think such people are limited by their rationality. Are they too limited to be admitted into your inner circle?

 

[Solongo]

Does it matter to you if your significant other or close friends don't share your beliefs or faith? You've already stated you think such people are limited by their rationality. Are they too limited to be admitted into your inner circle?

I never said they are limited by their rationality. That's an assumption you made. It does not matter if a close friend or significant other does not share my beliefs. Why should it bother me? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and whatever floats their boat and bring them peace of mind at the end of the day is what matters. Lot of the time people share the same beliefs and goals but have different methods and ways of synthesizing info and gathering thought analysis. And everyone is at different stages of insight and development and patience and understanding is needed when this happens. It is never about having the right way or wrong way to use our functions; but for me the balanced way works the best. I cannot rely on my Ni if the situation warrants that I develop my Ti functions and that will give me the desired results to whatever I am experiencing. But most of the time I do not rely on MBTI because I am more than my functions. The functions only give basic framework of personality development but cannot answer everything 100%. Thats why it has been shown that MBTI is only about 73% accurate and is a good base to start from. But using MBTI to explain all your thought processes is a little too much since people get so caught up and pick the functions they prefer. MBTI exists on a continuum and everyone can develop their opposing functions to fully take advantage if they wish.

 

[la boheme]

I never said they are limited by their rationality. That's an assumption you made.

You wrote:

It gets exhausting after a while. Trying to constantly quantify that which is mysterious and unexplainable gets boring after a while. Like somehow imagination and the mysteries of the universe all need to be scientifically broken down into scientific hypothesis. This shows lack of acceptance of the mysterious and beautiful aspect of humanity and to a certain degree it just needs to be accepted. To me it shows their lack of connection to their intuition and the overdevelopment of their Ti function. it should be a healthy balance on a continuum and not extremes of either you are Ti or Ni. The real enlightened person would use both functions necessitated by the situation.

It's not limited in the sense the Ti users can't change, but it is limited in the sense their Ti is "overdeveloped" to the detriment of their intuition.

It does not matter if a close friend or significant other does not share my beliefs. Why should it bother me? Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and whatever floats their boat and bring them peace of mind at the end of the day is what matters. Lot of the time people share the same beliefs and goals but have different methods and ways of synthesizing info and gathering thought analysis. And everyone is at different stages of insight and development and patience and understanding is needed when this happens. It is never about having the right way or wrong way to use our functions; but for me the balanced way works the best.

I asked if not sharing beliefs would bother you because you said you'd soon get "tired" of Ti's questioning and need for "scientific explanations". It sounded like you wouldn't tolerate having Ti around.

I cannot rely on my Ni if the situation warrants that I develop my Ti functions and that will give me the desired results to whatever I am experiencing. But most of the time I do not rely on MBTI because I am more than my functions. The functions only give basic framework of personality development but cannot answer everything 100%. Thats why it has been shown that MBTI is only about 73% accurate and is a good base to start from. But using MBTI to explain all your thought processes is a little too much since people get so caught up and pick the functions they prefer. MBTI exists on a continuum and everyone can develop their opposing functions to fully take advantage if they wish.

Where is this shown? And I agree that MBTI is just a theory and doubt it's even "73% accurate", but I do question ideas in the manner of Ti and many people do intuit ideas in the way of Ni. So the question still remains of Ni users' attitudes toward probing Ti.

 

[Erlian]

Might I ask you what your experience is with being presented with evidence that contradicts your insights? Do you accept the evidence and admit you're wrong? Or do you continue maintaining you are right? I'm sorry to say I've seen Ni-doms (INTJs) do the latter ten too many times.

Depends.

I will admit I'm wrong if I see that evidence goes directly against my earlier claim and I agree that the evidence is true.
Actually a flatmate is annoyed that I always win discussions with him. That one time he was right though and I admitted right away. Then he was sad that I admitted so easily. He wanted a prolonged debate in which he'd win at the end. I'm not giving him that
Not only am I mostly right, but when I know I'm wrong I'm the first to admit it.

On more abstract subjects evidence is not always 100% evidence. Say social topics on behaviour and experiments on rationality and subconscious etc. That evidence is highly tainted by the experiment and hard to generalise.
If in this case evidence goes against my insight I might not admit I'm wrong, but rather loosen my own claim: "Maybe you're right, but I'm not yet convinced."

Also I do a lot on self-falsifying. So if someone has evidence against my claims I get enthousiastic and hope I get to learn something new. If there's a crack in my truth I'll examine it thoroughly right away.

 

[Solongo]

You wrote:



It's not limited in the sense the Ti users can't change, but it is limited in the sense their Ti is "overdeveloped" to the detriment of their intuition.



I asked if not sharing beliefs would bother you because you said you'd soon get "tired" of Ti's questioning and need for "scientific explanations". It sounded like you wouldn't tolerate having Ti around.



Where is this shown? And I agree that MBTI is just a theory and doubt it's even "73% accurate", but I do question ideas in the manner of Ti and many people do intuit ideas in the way of Ni. So the question still remains of Ni users' attitudes toward probing Ti.

The biggest annoyance of a Ti's probing is not their beliefs or their over development or underdevelopment of their functions. It is their inability to accept what is being presented to them because they get more of a rush from the "probing" than understanding an external perspective. There seems to be some kind of rush or excitement in the pursuit of probing.Their desire to continually probe regardless of topic is a matter of attitude. So in an essence it is an attitude that is being given off and not so much what is being discussed.

The lack of intuition development is my personal observation.
p.s - the re-quoting of others writings as in "your wrote" with highlights is also an annoying way to probe others. To me it gives off an attitude of inquiry without understanding.

 

[apemon]

Does it matter to you if your significant other or close friends don't share your beliefs or faith? You've already stated you think such people are limited by their rationality. Are they too limited to be admitted into your inner circle?

Not too limited but some things are exhausting.

 

[LucyJr]

As a Ti-dom, I enjoy the company of P-doms whose perceptions stimulate and feed my thoughts. I'm particularly interested in Ni insights since they can appear to come out of nowhere and sometimes be quite prescient. However, they often fall far short of their marks, too. Either way, my inclination is to examine the insights to see if they make sense. I understand you do this with your tertiary Ti function. My question is, how do (or would) you react to sharing your insights with a Ti-dom whom you know is going to question your every utterance? Do you welcome this scrutiny? Or does the very idea repel you? I ask because I can see this as one deal-breaker in any close relationship with an INFJ.

I would welcome it gladly.
The idea that I would have a Ti dom logicaly veryfing everything I say makes me feel very excited. I always wanted to make logical sense in my head, and when I meet someone with strong logical skills, I instantly want to make him my friend.

For example, my grandfather is a ISTP (he is a undiscovered and unknown math genius). Althought he is pretty private and a old man, everytime I talk with him I try to convince him to explain to me something, just anything. I get amazing satisfaction when I can understand what he explains me, and I ask him "But why that and not this? What does this thing make it so and not that thing?" and he just explains me with a flawless logic. Its just amazing.

I don't know any INTP in real life tough. At a camp last summer, I meet a guy who was a INTP, kind of my age, but he was from another city, and I just lost him. INTPs are pretty rare breed, at least in my area.

 

[LucyJr]

It gets exhausting after a while. Trying to constantly quantify that which is mysterious and unexplainable gets boring after a while. Like somehow imagination and the mysteries of the universe all need to be scientifically broken down into scientific hypothesis. This shows lack of acceptance of the mysterious and beautiful aspect of humanity and to a certain degree it just needs to be accepted. To me it shows their lack of connection to their intuition and the overdevelopment of their Ti function. it should be a healthy balance on a continuum and not extremes of either you are Ti or Ni. The real enlightened person would use both functions necessitated by the situation.

The second function of INTPs is a intuitive function, Ne.

 

[LucyJr]

The biggest annoyance of a Ti's probing is not their beliefs or their over development or underdevelopment of their functions. It is their inability to accept what is being presented to them because they get more of a rush from the "probing" than understanding an external perspective. There seems to be some kind of rush or excitement in the pursuit of probing.Their desire to continually probe regardless of topic is a matter of attitude. So in an essence it is an attitude that is being given off and not so much what is being discussed.

The lack of intuition development is my personal observation.
p.s - the re-quoting of others writings as in "your wrote" with highlights is also an annoying way to probe others. To me it gives off an attitude of inquiry without understanding.

Again, do you know how INTPs make their logical aproximations? By intuitive insights, their secondary and supportive function, Ne.
And I think its correct to say that the nature of "misteriousness" has a logical nature (which is that its not really misterious after you discover the mistery), just as every thing that exist. Logic is everywhere in the Universe.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Ni is a function of receiving information. Would you think it's equally valid to question the correctness of Ne?

"Ne is bullshit" -some INFJ

 

[la boheme]

Depends.

I will admit I'm wrong if I see that evidence goes directly against my earlier claim and I agree that the evidence is true.
Actually a flatmate is annoyed that I always win discussions with him. That one time he was right though and I admitted right away. Then he was sad that I admitted so easily. He wanted a prolonged debate in which he'd win at the end. I'm not giving him that
Not only am I mostly right, but when I know I'm wrong I'm the first to admit it.

On more abstract subjects evidence is not always 100% evidence. Say social topics on behaviour and experiments on rationality and subconscious etc. That evidence is highly tainted by the experiment and hard to generalise.
If in this case evidence goes against my insight I might not admit I'm wrong, but rather loosen my own claim: "Maybe you're right, but I'm not yet convinced."

Also I do a lot on self-falsifying. So if someone has evidence against my claims I get enthousiastic and hope I get to learn something new. If there's a crack in my truth I'll examine it thoroughly right away.

About what are you "mostly right" and how frequently does this happen?

 

[la boheme]

The biggest annoyance of a Ti's probing is not their beliefs or their over development or underdevelopment of their functions. It is their inability to accept what is being presented to them because they get more of a rush from the "probing" than understanding an external perspective. There seems to be some kind of rush or excitement in the pursuit of probing.Their desire to continually probe regardless of topic is a matter of attitude. So in an essence it is an attitude that is being given off and not so much what is being discussed.

The lack of intuition development is my personal observation.
p.s - the re-quoting of others writings as in "your wrote" with highlights is also an annoying way to probe others. To me it gives off an attitude of inquiry without understanding.

OK, but I quoted you because you contradicted yourself, or appeared to me to. This is Ti noticing an inconsistency and bringing it to your attention. I can see how it can appear to you to be probing without understanding, but I can't understand if I don't first know what you are saying. And if you look at the discussion, my probing has made you change your statement from, "Ti-doms are tiring because Ti is overdeveloped and Ne underdeveloped" to "it's not so much that Ti is overdeveloped or Ne undeveloped, but more that the attitude is one of inquiry rather than understanding". Since you didn't state this latter position at first, I really can't be blamed for not understanding it. So if Ti probes for consistency, it is because knowing what is being said must precede understanding. In other words, I can't understand something I don't know. And I don't see why I should make the effort to understand if the statement is not clear--ie, you need to think more about what you're trying to say before I will try to understand it. However, notice that my probing has helped you clarify your position. So this process has not been a waste.