Thread about religion....hard to explain in title lol

[Firefly]

Ok well, this is something that upsets me a lot..

As a child I was bought up Christian, I had a very strong belief and relationship with God. But as I got older I started to see all the bad in the world, and couldn't imagine my God letting these bad things go on, no matter how many times its called a test of faith, some things that happen to people should never ever happen. It upset me so greatly I started to hate my God, the God who loves, forgives and provides for us, didn't feel like that God any more.

I no longer hate him I no longer believe he exists, but I wish so hard that he did/does, it hurts me, growing up with that realtionship I had with him, and all that followed after to now. I mostly try to block the world out, I dont watch tv or read the papers, I aviod people where ever possible, its just all so horrible, and he let it be this way.

woooooww I am a bit messed up huh?

I was wondering if anyone else has experiences this? And how they deal with it?

 

[Kmal]

from a christian perspective: i dont think god interacts with the world-- he just observes and see how we react to the devil's influence.

from an 'objective' perspective: people have free will. some people are fucked up, some people recognize the godliness in us.

 

[Diana]

The God I believe in doesn't micro-manage all the good and bad things that go on in the world.
i don't believe that god has a personal influence over all things mortal (counting every hair on your head and all of that). But I do believe that the essence of god is in everyone and every thing. We have free will. and most of the bad things that happen in this world are a result of choices we humans have made. (with the exception of disease of course).

I don't think god so much "let it be this way" as allowed us to make our own mistakes. I really think the only way god can/will interfere in human affairs is when we find the god inside ourselves and put it to good use.

 

[manatee]

Without evil there can be no good, no light without darkness. God doesn't actively intervene in our lives, not by any magic miracles, anyway. His will is done through humans, we act as agents of providence. If the world is going to be made a better place, we ourselves have to initiate the process. If we are unable to perceive evil, we cannot imagine any contrasting good, and if we can't do that, no action can be initiated. This simple truth makes it necessary that relative evil exists. The vital choice you're faced with is this: do you recognize evil and seek to eliminate it by utilizing the tools God has bequeathed upon you, or do you simply play pretend?

 

[Firefly]

The God I loved once would not let children be abused, or starve to death, innocent children, who need love and have to grow up in this horrible world, they dont deserve anything but love. I understand we all have free will, but I feel he should be protecting the innocent lives he bought into the world.

 

[Arsal]

Your God need not be the God of the Bible.

 

[Diana]

The God I loved once would not let children be abused, or starve to death, innocent children, who need love and have to grow up in this horrible world, they dont deserve anything but love. I understand we all have free will, but I feel he should be protecting the innocent lives he bought into the world.

I just don't think it works that way.

 

[Stu]

"...the expectation that reality is or should be superintended by an all loving father,...must be extracted ...[so] that the spirit of benevolence can live effectively." Edinger, Ego and Archetype p234

 

[David54]

I've always thought that it is not God that does or allows the bad in the world to take place. . We do that ourselves. . I believe that God is concerned with something much greater. . our soul. . that is why He sent s savior who could through His sacrifice allow our souls to be with God. .

 

[Jungian Trip]

from a christian perspective: i dont think god interacts with the world-- he just observes and see how we react to the devil's influence.

from an 'objective' perspective: people have free will. some people are fucked up, some people recognize the godliness in us.

That is not a Christian perspective. A system that posits a God who doesn't interact with the world is called Deism and is not necessarily Christian.

In a Christian worldview, God most certainly interacts with the world.

God creates the world.

God then destroys the world when it becomes "vile and evil".

God destroys Sodom and Gommorah.

God sends manna to his followers as they starve in the desert outside Sinai.

God is a visible and objective cloud by day and pillar of fire by night.

God sends a Chariot of Angels to drive-by pick up Elijah.

God becomes Jesus, fully God and fully human and dies for the same type of people he kills in Genesis when he floods the world.

You can say that your God is hands off. Fine. But the Christian God is not.

That being said, I am more likely to think of the Loch Ness Monster as real than the previously mentioned Jewish deities (I guess I should say Deity. Jesus is his own father and he is the holy spirit as well. It took a lot of in-fighting, name-calling, and killing for Christians to finally decide on the nature of the Trinity---3 in 1 or 1 in 3---- in 451 AD at the Council of Chalcedon; before that it was the nature of Christ and before that what holy books should actually be considered canonical).

There is no problem of evil since it is highly unlikely that there is a God governing things. And if there is a God, like Henry Miller, I would promptly walk up to him and spit in his face (Sorry for the male pronouns, ladies, but per George Carlin I doubt that a woman could ever fuck things up this badly).

 

[Feelings]

Alright, sorry to burst your bubble but shit's about to get real up in this thread.

As an INTJ, I can come up with a very good system of rationalizations for almost anything. So when I see religions try to use logic to 'explain away' inconsistencies, I want to both laugh and stare incredulously at the same time. My chatspeak expression would be "...". Yeah, they would get the dots.

If a house were on fire, and people were about to burn to death inside of it, you would call 911 wouldn't you? Well guess what, God wouldn't. God would stand there and watch them all burn to death. That is no exaggeration. Swallow this.

"God's reasons are beyond our comprehension"? That's carte blanche reasoning to assert God's existence despite ANY evidence to the contrary. It explains away everything and anything as "oh well, you're human and flawed and just wouldn't understand". So it becomes a matter of believing just because somebody told you to.

[MENTION=3960]Firefly[/MENTION] I am sorry that earth shattering realizations about brutal cold reality has hit you so suddenly, but welcome to my world anyways.

from a christian perspective: i dont think god interacts with the world-- he just observes and see how we react to the devil's influence.

And you know this because somebody told you so. How do you know that god's not just a sick fuck? How do you know that god and the devil are not just characters played by 1 entity who just wants to toy with us? How do you know that god didn't create hundreds of other alternate realities with a completely different physics and chemistry just for kicks? How do you know that other people are actually conscious entities, as opposed to just elements of 'the matrix'? You could be a 'brain in a jar'. You don't know. Certainty is comforting so you cling to it.

The same applies to what Diana and Manatee said.

 

[Diana]

Alright, sorry to burst your bubble but shit's about to get real up in this thread.

As an INTJ, I can come up with a very good system of rationalizations for almost anything. So when I see religions try to use logic to 'explain away' inconsistencies, I want to both laugh and stare incredulously at the same time. My chatspeak expression would be "...". Yeah, they would get the dots.

If a house were on fire, and people were about to burn to death inside of it, you would call 911 wouldn't you? Well guess what, God wouldn't. God would stand there and watch them all burn to death. That is no exaggeration. Swallow this.

"God's reasons are beyond our comprehension"? That's carte blanche reasoning to assert God's existence despite ANY evidence to the contrary. It explains away everything and anything as "oh well, you're human and flawed and just wouldn't understand". So it becomes a matter of believing just because somebody told you to.

[MENTION=3960]Firefly[/MENTION] I am sorry that earth shattering realizations about brutal cold reality has hit you so suddenly, but welcome to my world anyways.



And you know this because somebody told you so. How do you know that god's not just a sick fuck? How do you know that god and the devil are not just characters played by 1 entity who just wants to toy with us? How do you know that god didn't create hundreds of other alternate realities with a completely different physics and chemistry just for kicks? How do you know that other people are actually conscious entities, as opposed to just elements of 'the matrix'? You could be a 'brain in a jar'. You don't know. Certainty is comforting so you cling to it.

The same applies to what Diana and Manatee said.

Do you really have to state that you are an INTJ first? Does this somehow make your OPINION more rational and valid?

 

[Blind Bandit]

The God I loved once would not let children be abused, or starve to death, innocent children, who need love and have to grow up in this horrible world, they dont deserve anything but love. I understand we all have free will, but I feel he should be protecting the innocent lives he bought into the world.

Same , I also found the idea of blind faith to distract from human advancement.

If anything I'm overjoyed to be no longer be saddled by a belief in god. All it ever did was prevent person growth,. I have a much better prospective now. I also feel that lying to myself about life and the afterlife to be unhealthy.

When placed under introspection god could simply not stand up to reason.

That is was why I'm a Agnostic humanist. If if god was proven to be real and some how he gave me proof. I still wouldn't care about him or his plans. I still wouldn't worship.

God is an outdated concept to combat the hard nature of reality. But not until people accept that we by extension of god aren't the center of universe. We can begain to grow and understand the world around us. Instead of fighting so hard to make it fit our system (Religion).

 

[Kmal]

@Jungian Trip
it's very debatable. you can get either interpration from these passages. i choose to believe, a la christian bible, that he does not interact with the world.

For example, in James 5:14-15 we are told: "Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15) And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven." and in James 5:16 we are asked to "confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." and then told that "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." In Mark 11:23-25 Jesus further instructs to forgive when we pray "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, `Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24) Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25) And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." Only someone facing or sharing a serious sickness, pain or tragedy knows how hard it is. They know how hard it is to cope with the fear and uncertainty. They know how absurd it sounds when someone first tells them to "keep a positive attitude". They know how terrifying it is when the doubt comes. They know how hard it is to throw a mountain into the sea. But remember what Jesus told us in Matthew 17:19-20 when he said "I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, `Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." Faith as small as a mustard seed sounds a little like hope to me, and that's a good start.

And you know this because somebody told you so. How do you know that god's not just a sick fuck? How do you know that god and the devil are not just characters played by 1 entity who just wants to toy with us? How do you know that god didn't create hundreds of other alternate realities with a completely different physics and chemistry just for kicks? How do you know that other people are actually conscious entities, as opposed to just elements of 'the matrix'? You could be a 'brain in a jar'. You don't know. Certainty is comforting so you cling to it.

The same applies to what Diana and Manatee said.

what the fuck are you talking about? according to the bible, theyre not the same entity-- according to *x* opinon, who knows? what are you even saying?

 

[randomsomeone]

I think you may be able to re-engage with that faith and love of God some day as your journey continues. If do it will seem familar, but far deeper. The phenomenon you describe is actually fairly common these days, and in some ways almost a necessary step.

When we receive the basics of faith as young people, especially within the context of family, it comes at a time in our lives in which all the stories are processed (and sometimes even presented) as mythical, magical tales, and/or perhaps dogma. As we go forward in life our viewpoints change and our intellects engage on a different level...and this quite naturally. Unfortunately, there is seldom a corresponding movement into an experience of God beyond the mythic, and such is typically not presented to us either. So we get stuck where things do not make so much sense...lots of us do this.

I suggest moving into realms of deeper spirituality, and these can be found right within the faith tradition you are most familiar with. They have always been there, but beneath the surface. Engaging at this level we find that the stories are more profound than we first imagined, that dogma does serve a legitimate purpose and is not an end unto itself, and that religion, so often a path for destruction and harm, is also one of the few paths to real enlightenment, dignity, and freedom from suffering known to humanity.

We reject too quickly what we never fully understood to begin with, and our fear and more primitive ego grabs onto control. Perhaps this is natural to some extent. But becoming open to deeper truth moves us in full circle to a point where everything is seen in a new, profound light. There is a paradox at work here, one that may be sound familar.

This is all not just my idea...it is really happening out there. Just a few thoughts...

 

[bickelz]

@Princess Anastasia

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA"]YouTube - ‪The Bible: Evidence That God Is Evil?‬‏[/ame]

 

[DrShephard]

Do you really have to state that you are an INTJ first? Does this somehow make your OPINION more rational and valid?

I am an INTJ too

I was raised in a relatively christian household. My grandparents are deeply christian, my mother is somewhat agnostic but holds (or held) more onto christianity than anything else and my dad is a screwball ESFJ who claims that we are all catholic because his mother was catholic, but spouts off about how the bible is a fiction written by man.

I think I've said this before in another thread. In any case, I got to a point where I had the same sort of questions. Namely the problem of evil. That led deeper and deeper with seeing inconsistenies in the bible (Why was it bad to eat pork and shellfish and such before Jesus, but then afterward it was fine? and why did God speak (himself or through angels) to people and actively perform miracles while today it just doesn't happen?)

I considered athiesm, because it seemed more plausable than christianity based on what I'd seen. One of the most profound athiest statements I'd seen was in Richard Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" where an athiest friend of his was asked what he'd do if he died and went to the gates of heaven and met God, who asked the man why he didn't believe in him. He said that he would reply "I didn't see enough evidence to believe in you." Such an honest and truthful answer was truly profound and inspirational to me.

In any case, there was one problem with athiesm for me in the sense of it denying spirituality (that may be stretching the concept. Denying God, I think, tends to deny spirituality in general as well). That is this: We are conscious. That's fairly self-evident.

So we are conscious and I don't see evidence of a lord on high. That would indicate to me that there is something more than physics and chemistry to understanding the universe. Consciousness, too, is part of the universe. I would say that we are a part of the universe - not being placed into the universe. That, and that the universe can become "alive" - and it is alive through us. One can become aware of this, and in that sense they know that they are at one with the world. They are not a human that was born - they existed before their birth, and they will exist after their death. They have always existed, exist, and will always exist.

There are several lines in the Gospel of Thomas (which is removed from the bible because it doesn't fit in with the other teachings. I believe it was part of the Dead Sea Scrolls and is known as the Gnostic (secret knowledge) Gospel. It portrays Jesus as more of an enlightened person than the sole incarnation of God) that goes along that previous thing I said:

Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being."

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

The question still prods at my mind though - what is the deeper entity? Spirit or matter? Which is at the base of it all. I suppose I could take another line from the Gospel of Thomas to try and answer it, but I'm not even sure myself, and that's something that I need to figure out for myself - at least to a level of reasoning that I can accept for myself.

Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

 

[David54]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rRF1FQed7c&feature=player_detailpage"]YouTube - ‪The Word Is Alive - Casting Crowns‬‏[/ame]

 

[Feelings]

Do you really have to state that you are an INTJ first? Does this somehow make your OPINION more rational and valid?

Really thought I wrote that in there so carelessly? I just happen to know that INTJs are talented at playing logical gymnastics and can rationalize almost anything very very well, and I have experience doing this. I referenced my type to say that I personally have experience in this area which makes certain things more clear to me. The arguments I put forth definitely stand on their own. And I am kind of staring incredulously that you would be challenging the validity and rationality of my views when I put forth so much more of an explanation for mine than you have for yours. But you're mad so you're probably just spewing. Not really an acceptable thing to do in my opinion. It's not that I don't care about your feelings Diana, it's that I don't think you're addressing your dislike in an appropriate way.

what the fuck are you talking about? according to the bible, theyre not the same entity-- according to *x* opinon, who knows? what are you even saying?

Well, who told you to believe in the bible? And who wrote the bible? Somebody did, and you are listening to that somebody. I could just as well say that I witnessed XYZ, write all kinds of stories and opinions in a book, and 1000 years later if that book is taken to be factual truth, it doesn't make what I wrote any more valid.

It's simple, my angry friend: Your perspective is equally as valid as "*x* opinion". Neither are based on any more a credible source.

 

[Kmal]

Well, who told you to believe in the bible? And who wrote the bible? Somebody did, and you are listening to that somebody. I could just as well say that I witnessed XYZ, write all kinds of stories and opinions in a book, and 1000 years later if that book is taken to be factual truth, it doesn't make what I wrote any more valid.

It's simple, my angry friend: Your perspective is equally as valid as "*x* opinion". Neither are based on any more a credible source.

I'm not even a christian. The bible never says "this is a true story, based on 100% fact." I'm saying, why distort the bible into some hatred and contempt of it when its a fucking STORY???