[INFJ] - thoughts on ego death? | INFJ Forum

[INFJ] thoughts on ego death?

chad

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Feb 4, 2015
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hey infjs and other types.what are your thoughts on ego death for spiritual enlightenment.i know a few infjs that have come to the realization that the ego is an illusion all by themselfs.i dont know if its the ni+ti that gives them this insight.but anyways what are your guys thoughts on it,seeing the ego as illusion or seeing past it,or dropping the ego?opinions thoughts?
 
hey infjs and other types.what are your thoughts on ego death for spiritual enlightenment.i know a few infjs that have come to the realization that the ego is an illusion all by themselfs.i dont know if its the ni+ti that gives them this insight.but anyways what are your guys thoughts on it,seeing the ego as illusion or seeing past it,or dropping the ego?opinions thoughts?

I don't believe in ego death. Just death. The belief in it strikes me as being a paradoxical ego fulfillment similar to false humility. You can be aware of your ego and accept its existence (this may be considered the closest state to ego death or even equivalent with it in a more metaphorical manner), but it remains until death.
 
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Yeah, something like that can be extremely enlightening and can really expand one's mind to what it's capable of, but it's still a temporary experience. It may just be me quibbling over the term and its definition though. I like the term "ego loss" though. I think that might be a better term as it doesn't contain the implication of 'permanence' that 'death' does.
 
The way I feel about how people look at and how they deal with ego is basically like cutting parts off yourself on a deeper emotional and spiritual level. Life already does that to most of us and through our many sufferings we are humbled that way often to the point we are often broken not knowing who or what we are. The way I am going is to go ahead feel it and process it till runs its course then resolve as it just being another part but that is probably pretty dangerous to some people. Last but least from a christian perspective God/Jesus does take care of the issue but very few people allow that to happen in themselves so there is plenty of mess for the world to see.
 
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We are talking about ego like it's something separate. Ego is both self-esteem and self importance if you lose one... You lose the other. Unless I'm missing the point entirely. If we are talking clinically then "getting rid of" or "lessening" of the ego makes you Psychotic or neurotic. I'm curious though how can you be super-confident and neurotic at the same time.... I'm so confused...
 
We need our egos, but like any other part of ourselves, it can develop healthily or unhealthily.
Actually, we don't need the ego. There is no such thing as healthy/unhealthy ego, but there is slight difference about what we may consider the ego as healthy/unhealthy.

Ego is a fundamentally a defective part of a personality defense system which is selfish, always wants and never be sated. What we can call a healthy ego may cause a personality to easily control the ego, nothing more. Ego still will cause the personality to be selfish but not always, not for all subjects. May want but understand that not everything they want can be get. Because it never sated, personality never completely be content of what they have.

Ego protect personality by blocking the perceiving the reality as it is about the individual (also reason of the unrealistic thought which cause personality to think an/or feel positive) therefore personality never realize the truth(s) especially about themselves. For example, the unhealthy ego may cause personality to think that they are the most beautiful person in the world but healthy ego may cause personality to think they may be ugly but still they have a chance (after all it's subjective). (By ugly, I mean more like this: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/3/33/Ugly_man_2.jpg/revision/20090111105858)

Actually, most people's personality is buried deep in their ego. You can only witness to their real personality when they are close to death because ego protects personality to not lose. If a person loses everything they have then they have no need to use their ego therefore the pure personality afloats.

Ego also blocks individual from connecting with all living things (i.e. socially) therefore ego cause personality to think only for themselves, they think only they are important (healthy ego may think people that similar are related to them are important, it may also explain why society don't care about people just because they are different) and increases the individuality. Unhealthy ego cause person to be in need of being different but in reality all people not so different from each other and can't be except some anomaly(s) (i.e. mental illness, mutation, etc.).

So in short: Ego should die for a healthy living.

What we need is actually a healthy superego. People may think without ego they would be miserable but actually what should protect personality is superego because superego isn't selfish, not overprotective like ego (knows when is the right time to protect or not if it's healthy), doesn't block reality but it may be sensitive to harsh truth about other's thought(s) of the individual (may attack to personality with unrealistic thoughts if it's unhealthy). Unhealthy superego cause personality to perceive the reality about themselves worse than as it is. For example, they may be beautiful but they may think they are ugly. Healthy superego is in touch with reality more than ego and can help others to get back to reality.

Ego is both self-esteem and self importance if you lose one...

People think self-esteem is must but actually there is no need for it if you capable of perceiving the reality as it is.

Ego actually causes personality to think they can/do what they can't by blocking the perceiving of the reality. They may archive it by sheer luck.

Superego is the one actually helps personality to be in touch with reality. It not cause you to think you can archive something unrealistically like ego, but it makes you think this may happen or not, it depends on the situation.

About self-importance, no one is important yet from another, it's an illusion. You mentioned like it's a good thing.
 
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@biwaly

It sounds like you are conflating Freud's concept of the 'ego' with the 'id'. Also suggesting what is or is not necessary is contradictory to perceiving reality as it is.
 
It sounds like you are conflating Freud's concept of the 'ego' with the 'id'.

I don't. The id isn't fundamentally selfish, not always wants (needs and wishes are very limited) and it will be sated. It's a separate part which ego also protect. We can say the id is a child, ego is a mother and superego is a father. Id and ego are very relative hence may seem conflate. It's similiar to the relationship with child and mother. If there is a child then there is a mother. The child has to grow up so he can take care of himself/herself. If the child or mother or both disagree then that child will be like living in his/her mother's basement protected by his/her mother.

Also suggesting what is or is not necessary is contradictory to perceiving reality as it is.

No, it's merely reaching to the truth.
 
I don't. The id isn't fundamentally selfish, not always wants (needs and wishes are very limited) and it will be sated. It's a separate part which ego also protect. We can say the id is a child, ego is a mother and superego is a father. Id and ego are very relative hence may seem conflate. It's similiar to the relationship with child and mother. If there is a child then there is a mother. The child has to grow up so he can take care of himself/herself. If the child or mother or both disagree then that child will be like living in his/her mother's basement protected by his/her mother.

I'm sorry, but no. That isn't true.

According to Freud's model of the psyche, the id is the primitive and instinctual part of the mind that contains sexual and aggressive drives and hidden memories, the super-ego operates as a moral conscience, and the ego is the realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego.
https://www.simplypsychology.org/psyche.html
 

Yes, it seemed as I'm a Freud's follower and I was talking about Freud's theory but actually I was using Freud's idea so people can understand what I'm writing about.

If the subject is psychology then there is no such thing as true/false therefore there are no absolute truth(s) for all hence what happens in the brain may be different than others (because brain shapes itself for needs) therefore there are no standard(s) such as all people have ego or whatnots. For example, Freud said something like "all man instinctively have a sexual desire for their mother", I really don't think I have/had sexual desire for my mother. Honestly, she isn't my type and I was always demisexual and couldn't form a real emotional connection with her because she is very annoying. Probably Freud was talking about himself (to understand others you should understand yourself) but it doesn't mean he is wrong. Indeed, there are some men I know who actually want a sexual relationship with women who look like their mother and females base their opinion of the ideal partner on their father. I also disagree with Freud's theory of id, ego, and superego is part of the personality. I think it shouldn't be because it's actually a separate part

Actually, I was aware of id, ego, superego and some functions (Ni, Fe, Ti, Si) before I knew about Freud and Carl Jung exist ten years ago. It's not my intent to imply that I'm a prodigy like it seemed so. All I'm writing about is we should form our own opinion(s) instead of following other's opinion(s) because if you follow other's opinion(s) then you will limit your perception of reality. You should reach to the reality on your own.

If you don't have an opinion of your own about these subjects than we have nothing to discuss because I know all these theories. After all, these are theories and people seem to not aware of it and can't understand it may stay as theories.
 
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I got this from Wikipedia:

“Conscious awareness resides in the ego, although not all of the operations of the ego are conscious. Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.[23] The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.[23] "The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world. ...The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense...”

Which, sounds like something I, and a lot of people, need.

If we were all superego and not ego, we’d die of shame from not living up to society’s ideal. In your example, without a healthy ego telling you it’s ok that you’re not ideally beautiful, that someone will find you beautiful, your belief given to you by your super-ego would be that no one finds you beautiful because you don’t fit society’s standard for beauty. Tell me, which one is more realistic?

A healthy ego would say someone would find you beautiful as you are. An unhealthy ego would say everyone thinks you’re beautiful despite all contrary evidence, and then battle anyone who begs to differ. So, the ego is there, at least in the way I understand it, to help moderate between our id, our base desires, and our super-ego, our conception of the values and morals of the world around us.

I can see how some people might think that we’d would be more transparent, more authentic if you will, if we didn’t have this middle layer in between. It’s part of what makes us human though. It’s what keeps us from calling the cops when we see a black kid on our lawn. It’s what tells us that our fears are only fears, that we may not want to act on them. It’s also what insists more people attended our inauguration than the last, when clearly there weren’t.
 
What people are not getting is that there is a difference between ego and what is really pride let alone why we and other people feel what we all feel, when there is something that people associate with ego need to look into why they are feeling what they are feeling as there is almost always a deeper issue. Sometimes we feel what the other person is feeling and that can get reflected back.
 
This is an interesting topic though. Even though I meditate and believe in many Buddhist beliefs, the part about ego death is one I haven’t totally bought into. I think it’s important not to lose oneself as part of the whole.
 
@Chickensoup

First, I recommend you to read what I wroted to Matt3737 here if you didn't.

I got this from Wikipedia:

“Conscious awareness resides in the ego, although not all of the operations of the ego are conscious. Originally, Freud used the word ego to mean a sense of self, but later revised it to mean a set of psychic functions such as judgment, tolerance, reality testing, control, planning, defense, synthesis of information, intellectual functioning, and memory.[23] The ego separates out what is real. It helps us to organize our thoughts and make sense of them and the world around us.[23] "The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world. ...The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense...”

Actually, Freud mix-up personality with ego. Personality is a decision-making process which using data and information and has a ability to manipulate data and information therefore consciousness exist. What he called "psychic functions" is the job of consciousness. It's a separate part from id, ego and superego. You can think id, ego and superego as a data bank, not a decision-making process.

For example, Freud is mostly right about his theory of all people are their id when they born and they will be after it for a while (actually they are not their id completely). Because only data bank the personality use is mostly id. Because personality needs id to survive, there is not much need to use personality and mostly they are not aware of the all aspect of their personality (actually some people never does).

Forming of ego happens when id realizes it needs to be protected. Maybe for this reason ego activated or created by mimicking others to archive the goal. I'm not sure. The forming of the ego usually happens in teen years. It's the reason why most teens are rebellious and can't accept the reality. The chemical changes which comes with puberty makes it worst. Individuals start to use their ego to satisfy their id. This is the time the personality gets buried in ego. People growing up with their ego start to think they are their ego. Actually it's not their real self. It's simillar to people who accepted their mental illness as a part of their personality.

About reality, actually until superego forms, ego causes the personality to can't/hardly accept the reality. Superego is a helping hand to make personality get back into/realize the reality (especially about socially).

If Freud was right then we should call Individual that never been teen and who doesn't have an ego mindless.

Maybe the main question is what actually personality is. Personality is mainly a decision-making process but it has it's own information contained in genes (which is the information you born with) and it also has data and information bank which learned data and information stored. The content of the genes is personality, the information related your body to function, anything helps individual to survive (which Freud call it id). The information of id stored in our genes by our ancestors as they survived and produced. For example, this storage of information about survival happens in bacterias too (actually all living things on earth is evolved from a bacteria that sensitive to light). Personality can't be changed but it can be improved by storing new information to data banks. Ego and superego has big impact on personality but never be part of it. You can think you are what you know.

Another important question is what is unconscious. It's a data bank of personality which turns data into useful information. Consciousness has connection to unconscious therefore personality can access it. Especially with Ni and Ne functions (N-dom people usually have an aha moment, some people are aware of the unconcisions process. they think it's some kind of storms of information which they can't stop it). For example, some people may want something but they have no idea about the reason because they have a problem to access unconscious memory and handle with big chunks of data and information to form a reason but N-dom people have no problem of it. Ni-dom people can enter to the zen state and think efficiently to reach conclusion.

You should now understand by now why personality and ego are separate parts but relative and concussions don't have anything to do with ego and psychic functions aren't fundamental of ego.

If we were all superego and not ego, we’d die of shame from not living up to society’s ideal. In your example, without a healthy ego telling you it’s ok that you’re not ideally beautiful, that someone will find you beautiful, your belief given to you by your super-ego would be that no one finds you beautiful because you don’t fit society’s standard for beauty. Tell me, which one is more realistic?

I didn't wrote anything about being a superego. You can't even if you fold 1000 cranes for it. Your example is for unhealthy superego which I explained.

Also you mix-up ego with superego and your reasoning is poor. Why would you die because of shame from not living up to society’s ideal? Well if you wander naked around the city just because you wanted it and people laugh at you then you should die of shame. But the subject is being ugly then healthy superego actually protects you from this more realistically than ego. It makes you understand you born with it therefore it's not your fault (which it's our inside voice gives wise advice). Ego doesn't give you advice, it just covers the reality by saying (look at that hair, you are so beautiful. people will kill each other to have you). Which is the reason why we need healthy superego. Why would you ashamed of it? If you are ashamed of it it's because of your ego, not superego. Unhealthy superego actually makes you resentful for society.

But I know why you confused. The unhealthy thought of social ideal actually come from ego, not from superego. Ego thinks you have to be perfect to be worthy of a relationship and you deserve perfect people (which why some people insecure about themselves. as people get more matured they realize how ego creates unrealistic standards and by having healthy superego, people actually have a mutual understanding of the reality which most people share). Also, unrealistic social ideal created by ego is the reason of why some people care for their appearance even though they are going to grocery store. Their excuse is "I don't want to look bad among people, what people will think of me if I did". I don't think the reason of why I'm going to the grocery store wearing unmatching short, singlet and sandal with a cap is because of I have a healthy ego. I think no one cares about my appearance (even though they may think I'm homeless). Anyone cares actually use their ego.

Superego cause you to think: "it's okay to not be perfect but of course, some people choose perfect people" (people with healthy superego accept this fact and move on but unhealthy superego makes them sensitive to this harsh truth therefore they may feel bad about themselves). Unhealthy superego causes individual and others to reach a unrealistic standards which is impossible (i.e. unhealthy type 1). Unhealthy superego says (look at your face you are so ugly. you will die alone with your cats) but healthy superego says (not all people look for beauty and they shouldn't). Healthy ego causes personality to think they are superior to others at least for some aspects (which it doesn't really matter if you are the most beautiful person). Unhealthy ego cause person to think they are superior to others unrealistically. Unhealthy superego sensitive to the unperfection of others, compare others with themselves to feel better (not to feel and/or think superior but not to feel and/or think the worst). Healthy superego will cause them to accept yourself and others as they are. With a healthy superego people realize what is ideal. The ideal is being a healthy human, not a super model, or most famous person, not anything that is a subject of materialism. To ego what ideal is, being a person who is capable, having a house, car, ideal wife/husband, good job, and very good income, etc. That's the reason why people can't be happy and be content with what they have. They trying to reach an unrealistic ideal. If their ego is unhealthy then they try to stay with that ideal and they will do anything for it.

A healthy ego would say someone would find you beautiful as you are. An unhealthy ego would say everyone thinks you’re beautiful despite all contrary evidence, and then battle anyone who begs to differ.

You are right about the unhealthy ego but wrong about healthy ego, it's actually superego (if the fact is true) and you don't need ego or superego for it. Superego only gives you advice if you think you (personality) need it. Superego doesn't make untruthful statements. It just causes you to be sensitive to harsh truths if it's unhealthy.

Also, it doesn't mean it's healthy just because ego said: "someone would find you beautiful as you are". It depends.

So, the ego is there, at least in the way I understand it, to help moderate between our id, our base desires, and our super-ego, our conception of the values and morals of the world around us.

Yes, you are right but I think ego shouldn't have impact on decisionmaking process. If you let it, you wouldn't care to deliver a lost wallet to its owner and steal the money justifying "why would I waste time and energy for it? leaving it would be unwise so it's okay to steal money because if I don't others will)

I can see how some people might think that we’d would be more transparent, more authentic if you will, if we didn’t have this middle layer in between. It’s part of what makes us human though.

I think we shouldn't let ego hae impact on our personality. I don't think its okay to be materialistic selfish creature who thinks what matters is what you can do, exclude who can't and/or different, needs to be important and feel better when they are better than others. Yes, it can be the personality's fault too but ego usually causes this.

It’s what keeps us from calling the cops when we see a black kid on our lawn. It’s what tells us that our fears are only fears, that we may not want to act on them. It’s also what insists more people attended our inauguration than the last, when clearly there weren’t.

Depending on the situation, it may be ego or superego or none of them.

This is an interesting topic though. Even though I meditate and believe in many Buddhist beliefs, the part about ego death is one I haven’t totally bought into. I think it’s important not to lose oneself as part of the whole.

If you have a strong personality then you actually don't need of protection of ego and/or superego therefore you shouldn't have to be afraid. Personality can protect itself if it chooses so. Weak personalities tends to accept/obey to others' opinion easily therefore they are fake, they are a reflection, they are usually a broken reflection.
 
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If the subject is psychology then there is no such thing as true/false therefore there are no absolute truth(s) for all hence what happens in the brain may be different than others (because brain shapes itself for needs) therefore there are no standard(s) such as all people have ego or whatnots.

*Posits a purely subjective standard for psychology, then proceeds to go on an objective styled monologue to prop up their own views.*

Uh huh....whatever you say must be true, I guess.
 
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