The Gay Gene

[Saru Inc]

--Authors Footnote I'm posting this under News/Politics and not Science/whatever because this probably isn't scientifically founded in the way most might think, (due to researchers saying previously there was no gene etc.) so this is more of a discussion of its cultural impact than its possible scientific foundings--


So, despite my beliefs on gay marriage, liberalism, madonna, Gaga, hair drowning in pomade and probably every single thing looped into the idea of "theater" I am indoubtedbly gay. Also I'm a homosexual. So with out much more pompous ado,

http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/2555-gay-men.html

While female sexuality appears to be more fluid, research suggests that male gayness is an inborn, unalterable, strongly genetically influenced trait. But considering that the trait discourages the type of sex that leads to procreation – that is, sex with women – and would therefore seem to thwart its own chances of being genetically passed on to the next generation, why are there gay men at all?
Put differently, why haven't gay man genes driven themselves extinct?
This longstanding question is finally being answered by new and ongoing research. For several years, studies led by Andrea Camperio Ciani at the University of Padova in Italy and others have found that mothers and maternal aunts of gay men tend to have significantly more offspring than the maternal relatives of straight men. The results show strong support for the "balancing selection hypothesis," which is fast becoming the accepted theory of the genetic basis of male homosexuality.
The theory holds that the same genetic factors that induce gayness in males also promote fecundity (high reproductive success) in those males' female maternal relatives. Through this trade-off, the maternal relatives' "gay man genes," though they aren't expressed as such, tend to get passed to future generations in spite of their tendency to make their male inheritors gay.


While no one knows which genes, exactly, these might be, at least one of them appears to be located on the X chromosome, according to genetic modeling by Camperio Ciani and his colleagues. Males inherit only one X chromosome – the one from their mother – and if it includes the gene that promotes gayness in males and fecundity in females, he is likely to be gay while his mom and her female relatives are likely to have lots of kids. If a daughter inherits that same X-linked gene, she herself may not be gay, but she can pass it on to her sons. [Why Are There Gay Women?]
But how might the "gay man gene" make females more reproductively successful? A new study by Camperio Ciani and his team addresses the question for the first time. Previously, the Italian researchers suggested that the "gay man gene" might simply increase androphilia, or attraction to men, thereby making the males who possess the gene homosexual and the females who possess it more promiscuous. But after investigating the characteristics of 161 female maternal relatives of homosexual and heterosexual men, the researchers have adjusted their hypothesis. Rather than making women more attracted to men, the "gay man gene" appears to make these women more attractive to men.
"High fecundity, that means having more babies, is not about pleasure in sex, nor is it about promiscuity. The androphilic pattern that we found is about females who increase their reproductive value to attract the best males," Camperio Ciani told Life's Little Mysteries.
Turns out, the moms and aunts of gay men have an advantage over the moms and aunts of straight men for several reasons: They are more fertile, displaying fewer gynecological disorders or complications during pregnancy; they are more extroverted, as well as funnier, happier and more relaxed; and they have fewer family problems and social anxieties. "In other words, compared to the others, [they are] perfect for a male," Camperio Ciani said. Attracting and choosing from the best males enables these women to produce more offspring, he noted.
The new study will appear in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Sexual Medicine.
Of course, no single factor can account for the varied array of sexual orientations that exist, in men as well as in women. "It is quite possible that there are several influences on forming a homosexual orientation," said Gerulf Rieger, a sexual orientation researcher at Cornell University. He noted that environmental factors – including the level of exposure to certain hormones in the womb – also play a role in molding male sexuality. But as for why genetic factors would exist that make men gay, it appears that these genes make women, as well as gay men, alluring to other men.

I found this link on a yahoo site, so know beforehand anything relating to yahoo is not only possibly sterotypical, it's always incorrect. I just thought this was an interesting idea since... *wait for it*


-I'm gay
-My little sister is "possibly" a bisexual/lesbian (Although I under no cirumcstances wish that over her if its not for her, I just want her to be happy)

-My mom has 5 kids
-My mom's two sisters each have 4 kids to their own.
-My cousins (the females) have been prepping their baby chutes early, and two are already pregnant after being married a short time.
-My mom gets hit on a lot (probably not relevant, but the last paragraph makes me want to put that in there)
-Btw my mom's side of family has a lot of cathloics, occultists (weird combination?), alcholics, depressed people, divorces, AND BABIES. (Srsly. Friggen huge families.)




My personal thoughts on this: I don't know. I've always known I was gay and it wasn't a choice. However, I do also believe, as a Christian, one of the greatest miracles in this world, is the miracle of life. I see this a self evident truth, whether you're religous or not. (degression: If you're religious, life is a gift from God/If you're not, is it not amazing to have evolved this far? Every human is a treasure due to the fact its billions of years of cultivation/if you're scientologist I have no hope for you go pay your chuch fees)

So this was the question that truly pestered me, not whether or not God loved me as a Gay, I know he does... But at the same time how am I to participate in the Gift of Life? I'd love to have children, and of course adopting is always an option, even if its cliché at this point, but I think I'd like kids of my own. Sow my wild oats, as Eddie Murphy might say. I guess I could always get drunk and just pop into a brothel one night, but that's not the way to go. Plus I'm still forming and revamping almost all of my thoughts on this subject, so I don't really know what else to say.

Oh yeah except on average apparently the gay gene makes you a horrible singer. Gay artists suck. blech.


Thoughts? Both serious and non serious are glady welcomed.

 

[Nixie]

I think that there has been homosexuality in human civilzation for a long time. Certainly, we need to acknowledge it isn't some sort of "modern" phenomenon. I think there are probably some type(s) of bilogical indicators that come into play--a pre-disposition. However, I also think that social factors play a large part in expressed homosexuality. I think there has been a strong movement toward more openness about being gay in the past 50 years or so since the lifestyle was driven underground by the Christian/religious morality brigade. Like all things, I see the answer as a mixture of this and that--not just this, not just that.

I think that societies views on male roles can create a more difficult path for gay men. I see a lot of struggle for acceptance. I find it hard not to say that "acceptance" comes from within first. I think, the cultural conditioning from the Christian stance creates an enormous amount of conflict for gay men. I also find it hard not to say "people have the right to say they don't like your lifestyle" but that isn't the same as being able to say "your lifestyle is wrong".

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

I learned about this theory in a class I took. They said the same thing; there have been huge studies done that show female relatives of gays tend to have more children. There is definitely truth to this theory. I also learned that for each older brother a person has their chances of being gay increase by roughly 33%. I also learned a cool theory on sexual orientation called "exotic becomes erotic", I'm not gonna get into it here but if you are interested Google it.

This article has one flaw though. It states that males inherit only one X chromosome which is false. There are plenty XY females and XX males out there. The real determinant of a persons sex is the presence of the SRY gene. Not all Y chromosomes carry the SRY gene. Also sometimes the SRY gene will get attached to an X. So it's a fallacy that chromosomes determine sex. There is a causal relationship between chromosomes and the presence of the SRY gene, but chromosomes don't determine sex. More accurately, the presence of the SRY gene is what determines sex.

Anyways, my teacher believed that when it comes to gayness. There are probably both environmental and genetic elements to it. There appears to be a purpose to homosexuality in nature. In other words, gayness hasn't been proven to go against the laws of natural selection because of the theory you posted.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Unless they have isolated genes, I would interpret the data to say that very fecund women more frequently display traits that confuse the sexuality of their male offspring. Or, perhaps, that the attention of fathers to each child in a large family is so divided, that male children from such large families more frequently fail to identify with him.


My first profession, years ago, was as a geneticist - and until real genes are identified for any trait that biases against reproduction, I'll always be skeptical.

 

[Kmal]

It's hard to believe homosexuality is caused by genetics. I like to think everyone can be gay if they want, and everyone who's gay can at least become bi-sexual. That being said, how is it genetic now if we have choice in the matter? Or is the gene one where free will is taken away and you literally dont have a choice in the matter?

 

[FadedFromTime]

I personally faced the fact that I had feelings towards women and men when I fell in love with a girl (my best friend) at 14. I had always had those feelings growing up that I thought women were beautiful and lovely but I was scared because I was raised Christian. I came to realize as I grew up that my feelings were not just going to go away, that I had to choose between living as bisexual or straight, and I chose to be straight. I still have to repress some of my feelings and urges, but it is worth it. So the answer to the question of whether being gay is a choice or not can be answered two ways. Yes and no. No you can't just choose to be in love with someone unless you are "that way", but if you do have those feelings you can choose to ignore them, if that makes any sense.

 

[Saru Inc]

I personally faced the fact that I had feelings towards women and men when I fell in love with a girl (my best friend) at 14. I had always had those feelings growing up that I thought women were beautiful and lovely but I was scared because I was raised Christian. I came to realize as I grew up that my feelings were not just going to go away, that I had to choose between living as bisexual or straight, and I chose to be straight. I still have to repress some of my feelings and urges, but it is worth it. So the answer to the question of whether being gay is a choice or not can be answered two ways. Yes and no. No you can't just choose to be in love with someone unless you are "that way", but if you do have those feelings you can choose to ignore them, if that makes any sense.

You can absolutely choose to ignore any feeling, correct. The true question is should you, due to moral, ethic, or religious reasons.

It's hard to believe homosexuality is caused by genetics. I like to think everyone can be gay if they want, and everyone who's gay can at least become bi-sexual. That being said, how is it genetic now if we have choice in the matter? Or is the gene one where free will is taken away and you literally dont have a choice in the matter?

It actually isn't hard to believe, -- well I should say it doesn't seem that far "out there." (In my opinion of course) However, my view may be biased as a gay Christian, and I've spent a lot of time researching this. At first I was like "omg thats dumb." But I read this really good article once, it was written by two scientists, one Christian, and one Atheist (I don't think that was on purpose, though). And it really went into depth on why genetics could be a possibility, but at the same time, the issues it has with following this line of logic, and not being drawn into the fallacy of correlation equaling causation. I really love "bipartisan" pieces, simply because I'm a Christian doesn't mean I only want Christian opinions on something.

Unless they have isolated genes, I would interpret the data to say that very fecund women more frequently display traits that confuse the sexuality of their male offspring. Or, perhaps, that the attention of fathers to each child in a large family is so divided, that male children from such large families more frequently fail to identify with him.


My first profession, years ago, was as a geneticist - and until real genes are identified for any trait that biases against reproduction, I'll always be skeptical.

This is absolutely true, it could also be said, based on this article, that women with high fecundity tend to have more children with schizophrenia, birth defects, and dead babies. Thus the same gene that makes women fertile also kills children. Correlation doesn't mean causation. This is why I posted this not in the science section.

I learned about this theory in a class I took. They said the same thing; there have been huge studies done that show female relatives of gays tend to have more children. There is definitely truth to this theory. I also learned that for each older brother a person has their chances of being gay increase by roughly 33%. I also learned a cool theory on sexual orientation called "exotic becomes erotic", I'm not gonna get into it here but if you are interested Google it.

This article has one flaw though. It states that males inherit only one X chromosome which is false. There are plenty XY females and XX males out there. The real determinant of a persons sex is the presence of the SRY gene. Not all Y chromosomes carry the SRY gene. Also sometimes the SRY gene will get attached to an X. So it's a fallacy that chromosomes determine sex. There is a causal relationship between chromosomes and the presence of the SRY gene, but chromosomes don't determine sex. More accurately, the presence of the SRY gene is what determines sex.

Anyways, my teacher believed that when it comes to gayness. There are probably both environmental and genetic elements to it. There appears to be a purpose to homosexuality in nature. In other words, gayness hasn't been proven to go against the laws of natural selection because of the theory you posted.

Intesresting. Some said it's God's version of birth control. Which of course I don't agree with. I heard a joke that's more funny when spoken then read. That homosexuality is more inherent in nature than heterosexuality,

after all. Two atoms make a molecule, what does an atom and an eve make? Nothing. An eve isn't even a particle.

It was something like that. Idk it was a while ago.

I think that there has been homosexuality in human civilzation for a long time. Certainly, we need to acknowledge it isn't some sort of "modern" phenomenon. I think there are probably some type(s) of bilogical indicators that come into play--a pre-disposition. However, I also think that social factors play a large part in expressed homosexuality. I think there has been a strong movement toward more openness about being gay in the past 50 years or so since the lifestyle was driven underground by the Christian/religious morality brigade. Like all things, I see the answer as a mixture of this and that--not just this, not just that.

I think that societies views on male roles can create a more difficult path for gay men. I see a lot of struggle for acceptance. I find it hard not to say that "acceptance" comes from within first. I think, the cultural conditioning from the Christian stance creates an enormous amount of conflict for gay men. I also find it hard not to say "people have the right to say they don't like your lifestyle" but that isn't the same as being able to say "your lifestyle is wrong".

I agree with "most" of that, but I'm a bit confused by the last sentence. So you are you saying its ok to say they don't like your lifestyle, but they can't say its wrong? What if they don't like your lifestyle because it's wrong ?

 

[AKM]

Going with the idea that "gay" is based on a gene, that still doesn't make it something automatically good or acceptable. So many other things are called "genetic" and treated as mental illnesses, which they are. If something being genetic means that it should be accepted and embraced for what it is, then why do we treat schizophrenics or other mentally ill people?

 

[acd]

Going with the idea that "gay" is based on a gene, that still doesn't make it something automatically good or acceptable. So many other things are called "genetic" and treated as mental illnesses, which they are. If something being genetic means that it should be accepted and embraced for what it is, then why do we treat schizophrenics or other mentally ill people?

Because being gay is not a mental illness.

Mental illnesses are... illnesses that are detrimental to someone's well being that cause a loss of function.......
Mental illnesses are dysfunctions in mental processes and brain structures and chemistry that cause life to be very hard for people if untreated..
Ask a person with major depression if they want to be depressed...
I don't know if you've ever known a schizophrenic, but when they are off their meds and having a break down, they aren't very functional.
They are in absolute terror and dependant on the care of others (from what I have witnessed.)

I'm not sure if you've taken the time to consider what you just said before saying it.

Nobody needs to be treated for being gay. Gay people can lead productive and functional and satisfying lives the same as heterosexuals...
The problem is that some heterosexuals like to inject their own issues into gay people's lives.. causing misery and conflict.
You have a problem with people being gay because it is against your religion, so you think it is an illness, and believe that you are justified.

That's not the reality of the situation. That is just your belief. And please don't pretend that you can liken your personal beliefs to medical science.

 

[AKM]

Because being gay is not a mental illness.

Mental illnesses are... illnesses that are detrimental to someone's well being that cause a loss of function.......
Mental illnesses are dysfunctions in mental processes and brain structures and chemistry that cause life to be very hard for people if untreated..
Ask a person with major depression if they want to be depressed...
I don't know if you've ever known a schizophrenic, but when they are off their meds and having a break down, they aren't very functional.
They are in absolute terror and dependant on the care of others (from what I have witnessed.)

I'm not sure if you've taken the time to consider what you just said before saying it.

Nobody needs to be treated for being gay. Gay people can lead productive and functional and satisfying lives the same as heterosexuals...
The problem is that some heterosexuals like to inject their own issues into gay people's lives.. causing misery and conflict.
You have a problem with people being gay because it is against your religion, so you think it is an illness, and believe that you are justified.

That's not the reality of the situation. That is just your belief. And please don't pretend that you can liken your personal beliefs to medical science.

I will take your response line by line:

Mental illnesses are... illnesses that are detrimental to someone's well being that cause a loss of function.......

Many gay friends, as well as gay people that I've known through other venues feel that being gay has left them on the outside of life.

Mental illnesses are dysfunctions in mental processes and brain structures and chemistry that cause life to be very hard for people if untreated..

Who is to define what a dysfunction in mental processes would be? If you are "wired differently" then wouldn't that be considered a dysfunction? If to turn a device on I needed to hit the off switch, and to turn it off I needed to hit the on switch, while the device would still be functional, it would still be agreed there was something wrong with it. I also know no gay people who have considered life to be easy for them...that will even hide it (some very well) to avoid having to answer for who they are. If it is correct why would they be ashamed? To do what is right is always right, and the judgement of men (or women) shouldn't matter.

Ask a person with major depression if they want to be depressed...

True, they usually do not. Ask a person just realizing they may be gay whether they want to be gay...

I don't know if you've ever known a schizophrenic, but when they are off their meds and having a break down, they aren't very functional.

Neither is a person contemplating suicide because they are struggling with thoughts of homosexuality.

I'm not sure if you've taken the time to consider what you just said before saying it.

I have, and will address your concerns with the next few lines.

Nobody needs to be treated for being gay. Gay people can lead productive and functional and satisfying lives the same as heterosexuals...

Then why do people have issues with themselves? With the thoughts that they even 'might" be gay? As far as living their lives, yes, they can usually hold jobs, maintain friendships, and contribute to society. They can even be happy. The biological purpose of sex is to create offspring that then further the species. Whether you are religious or not, that's just a fact. If everyone were gay, it would take forced intercourse or scientific interjection to create children.

The problem is that some heterosexuals like to inject their own issues into gay people's lives.. causing misery and conflict.

If heterosexuals and homosexuals equally can live fulfilling lives (as you've stated) then what issues would heterosexuals have that homosexuals don't? Therefore the issues exist anyway, and any person who lets someone elses issues give them grief has issues within themselves as well. No one can "make" you have issues unless you let them.

You have a problem with people being gay because it is against your religion, so you think it is an illness, and believe that you are justified.

I am Christian, and Christianity does consider it a sin, but I have many friends who are gay and have struggled. Friends who have overcome the struggle too. Many others who haven't or don't consider it worth worrying about at this point in their lives. I don't know if it's an illness (I was merely using geneticism as far as mental illness as an example.) There are many other things that are genetic that are considered "abnormal"...some are accepted as no problem (especially as they become more common the stigma decreases) and others that are still taboo subjects even though they are no fault of the person suffering. I love my gay brothers and sisters, and I don't preach at them about damnation or anything else. They are still God's children, and above all things we are to love one another. Love also means helping each other through struggles. I have at least one friend who is out and proud and is a self proclaimed "male homo slut"...he obviously has no struggle with who he is. Other friends have dreamed of marrying and having children, and now are struggling with being gay and failing to see those dreams fulfilled in the way they've always wanted them to be. As long as it's considered acceptable, the people who are suffering really have no where to turn for real help if they want it.

That's not the reality of the situation. That is just your belief. And please don't pretend that you can liken your personal beliefs to medical science.

I didn't state any beliefs in my previous post, I merely asked a clarifying question. My personal beliefs and medical science don't disagree as far as I see it right now. It was stated that being gay may be genetic. I asked how that makes it good, when so many other genetic issues are accepted AS issues, though very likely liveable and maintainable issues. I'm not sure that you've answered that question in this response.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Intesresting. Some said it's God's version of birth control. Which of course I don't agree with. I heard a joke that's more funny when spoken then read. That homosexuality is more inherent in nature than heterosexuality,

after all. Two atoms make a molecule, what does an atom and an eve make? Nothing. An eve isn't even a particle.

It was something like that. Idk it was a while ago.

I just wanted to add one little thing. The reason why he believed there was genetic and environmental elements;

1) If there are two identical twins and one of them is gay, it is (I think) around a 50% chance the other identical twin will be gay as well. This implies there is a genetic element. Also the fact that female relatives of gays reproduce more is another implication that genetics play a role. Edit: there is also an increased chance that the other identical twin will be gay when the two are separated at birth, which removes the environmental element.

2) The fact that a male with more older siblings is more likely to be gay implies there are environmental influences. The "exotic becomes erotic" theory supports the environmental argument as well. And I see the "exotic becomes erotic" theory taking place everywhere, not just with sexual orientation.

So yeah, that's why my teacher thought it was both.

 

[acd]

I will take your response line by line:

Many gay friends, as well as gay people that I've known through other venues feel that being gay has left them on the outside of life.

Who is to define what a dysfunction in mental processes would be? If you are "wired differently" then wouldn't that be considered a dysfunction? If to turn a device on I needed to hit the off switch, and to turn it off I needed to hit the on switch, while the device would still be functional, it would still be agreed there was something wrong with it. I also know no gay people who have considered life to be easy for them...that will even hide it (some very well) to avoid having to answer for who they are. If it is correct why would they be ashamed? To do what is right is always right, and the judgement of men (or women) shouldn't matter.
Bottom line: You are wrong to associate homosexuality with mental illness.
True, they usually do not. Ask a person just realizing they may be gay whether they want to be gay...

Neither is a person contemplating suicide because they are struggling with thoughts of homosexuality.

I have, and will address your concerns with the next few lines.

Then why do people have issues with themselves? With the thoughts that they even 'might" be gay? As far as living their lives, yes, they can usually hold jobs, maintain friendships, and contribute to society. They can even be happy. The biological purpose of sex is to create offspring that then further the species. Whether you are religious or not, that's just a fact. If everyone were gay, it would take forced intercourse or scientific interjection to create children.

If heterosexuals and homosexuals equally can live fulfilling lives (as you've stated) then what issues would heterosexuals have that homosexuals don't? Therefore the issues exist anyway, and any person who lets someone elses issues give them grief has issues within themselves as well. No one can "make" you have issues unless you let them.

I am Christian, and Christianity does consider it a sin, but I have many friends who are gay and have struggled. Friends who have overcome the struggle too. Many others who haven't or don't consider it worth worrying about at this point in their lives. I don't know if it's an illness (I was merely using geneticism as far as mental illness as an example.) There are many other things that are genetic that are considered "abnormal"...some are accepted as no problem (especially as they become more common the stigma decreases) and others that are still taboo subjects even though they are no fault of the person suffering. I love my gay brothers and sisters, and I don't preach at them about damnation or anything else. They are still God's children, and above all things we are to love one another. Love also means helping each other through struggles. I have at least one friend who is out and proud and is a self proclaimed "male homo slut"...he obviously has no struggle with who he is. Other friends have dreamed of marrying and having children, and now are struggling with being gay and failing to see those dreams fulfilled in the way they've always wanted them to be. As long as it's considered acceptable, the people who are suffering really have no where to turn for real help if they want it.

I didn't state any beliefs in my previous post, I merely asked a clarifying question. My personal beliefs and medical science don't disagree as far as I see it right now. It was stated that being gay may be genetic. I asked how that makes it good, when so many other genetic issues are accepted AS issues, though very likely liveable and maintainable issues. I'm not sure that you've answered that question in this response.

Maybe they feel like they are on the outside because people tell them they are wrong and dysfunctional. You know, people like you.


Also--Who is to define mental illness??? Seriously?? Doctors.. people who study the human mind and body...There is an entire field of study on this...

Do you realize how absurd it is for you to be worried that because some people are gay, everyone is going to become gay and the human race is going to become extinct?
Are you serious? Forced procreation??? 7 billion people on the planet. I don't think anyone has to worry about forcing people to procreate.
But what a disgusting thought... that anyone should force anyone to become a parent against their will.. Scary that you would arrive at that conclusion..


And anyone who LETS someone else's issues have an affect on them already has problems? Sounds pretty callous.
How would like you to spend your life being told you are wrong and insane and need treatment for feeling something natural to you...How would you like to be ridiculed by society and denied the same rights as everyone else? You think you wouldn't have any problems? Please. I read your posts. You are offended by people swearing.

Here's something to consider: The world has 7 billion people in it.. all of which are exploiting and exhausting the planet's resources--destroying ecosystems--destroying the biosphere... wiping out species faster than ever before..
Maybe it's a good thing if we stop breeding so much. Maybe homosexuality is natures way of balancing things out..


And marriage is only for families, eh? I think we should let gay people get married, adopt children, and have families. Let them adopt the children that are not cared for or unwanted or neglected and abused by parents who did not benefit from the abstinence only education they received---or the cutting of family planning programs intended to moralize people out of having unmarried sex (in the U.S.)

 

[mochi]

There is definitely a biological factor, if not genetic factor. Or even, perhaps, an epigenetic factor. If you look at family trees, there seems to be a pattern through mothers. I wonder if it is perhaps the mother has a gene that controls the influence of hormones throughout pregnancy- thus that would explain how it's not exactly 100%, ranging on the hormones and the child's own genes in reaction to this. There are so many possibilities, including the range of perhaps neurobiological structures. This is also true of the gender spectrum. I really believe that being homosexual or any other spectrum on the LGBTQ is a physical trait. It is not a choice (although there are some straight people who choose to engage in homosexual activities-that's true, but you have to realize those people are rare-- most people who do are Gay/lesbian/bi/other, and from there it is INNATE).

As for religion, I believe God truly loves homosexuals and does not condemn them; after all, he made them. I refuse to believe the words of human beings who made this rule that God condemns them, considering that in the past God "supposedly" hated those who intermarried, and also believed in slavery, etcetera. The bible itself has been altered by human beings.

Edit: I only read the first post before posting lol, I feel very strong about this subject. X3

 

[Saru Inc]

The issue you're running into is why does a person feel 'bad' for being gay. The reason you've given, if any, is jaded. The reason one feels bad about being gay in the following instances:

I will take your response line by line:

Many gay friends, as well as gay people that I've known through other venues feel that being gay has left them on the outside of life.

Who is to define what a dysfunction in mental processes would be? If you are "wired differently" then wouldn't that be considered a dysfunction? If to turn a device on I needed to hit the off switch, and to turn it off I needed to hit the on switch, while the device would still be functional, it would still be agreed there was something wrong with it. I also know no gay people who have considered life to be easy for them...that will even hide it (some very well) to avoid having to answer for who they are. If it is correct why would they be ashamed? To do what is right is always right, and the judgement of men (or women) shouldn't matter.

True, they usually do not. Ask a person just realizing they may be gay whether they want to be gay...

Neither is a person contemplating suicide because they are struggling with thoughts of homosexuality.

I have, and will address your concerns with the next few lines.

Then why do people have issues with themselves? With the thoughts that they even 'might" be gay? As far as living their lives, yes, they can usually hold jobs, maintain friendships, and contribute to society. They can even be happy. The biological purpose of sex is to create offspring that then further the species. Whether you are religious or not, that's just a fact. If everyone were gay, it would take forced intercourse or scientific interjection to create children.

If heterosexuals and homosexuals equally can live fulfilling lives (as you've stated) then what issues would heterosexuals have that homosexuals don't? Therefore the issues exist anyway, and any person who lets someone elses issues give them grief has issues within themselves as well. No one can "make" you have issues unless you let them.

I am Christian, and Christianity does consider it a sin, but I have many friends who are gay and have struggled. Friends who have overcome the struggle too. Many others who haven't or don't consider it worth worrying about at this point in their lives. I don't know if it's an illness (I was merely using geneticism as far as mental illness as an example.) There are many other things that are genetic that are considered "abnormal"...some are accepted as no problem (especially as they become more common the stigma decreases) and others that are still taboo subjects even though they are no fault of the person suffering. I love my gay brothers and sisters, and I don't preach at them about damnation or anything else. They are still God's children, and above all things we are to love one another. Love also means helping each other through struggles. I have at least one friend who is out and proud and is a self proclaimed "male homo slut"...he obviously has no struggle with who he is. Other friends have dreamed of marrying and having children, and now are struggling with being gay and failing to see those dreams fulfilled in the way they've always wanted them to be. As long as it's considered acceptable, the people who are suffering really have no where to turn for real help if they want it.

I didn't state any beliefs in my previous post, I merely asked a clarifying question. My personal beliefs and medical science don't disagree as far as I see it right now. It was stated that being gay may be genetic. I asked how that makes it good, when so many other genetic issues are accepted AS issues, though very likely liveable and maintainable issues. I'm not sure that you've answered that question in this response.

is because they've been taught that it is wrong by a society scared of different people. Its circular logic if you think about it.

I don't believe you have any gay friends, and as much as I detest the usage of the word 'ignorance,' your ignorance is quite astounding. Its also offensive to many gay people, to imply it is their fault they want to commit suicide.

I urge you to go meet a gay person. Based on your posts claiming you're a Christian, I'm called into question if you've ever read the Bible. Try it. Good book.

 

[AKM]

Maybe they feel like they are on the outside because people tell them they are wrong and dysfunctional. You know, people like you.


Also--Who is to define mental illness??? Seriously?? Doctors.. people who study the human mind and body and have way more knowledge than you or I do about medicine..

Do you realize how absurd it is for you to be worried that because some people are gay, everyone is going to become gay and the human race is going to become extinct.
Are you serious? Forced procreation???


Anyone who LETS someone else's issues have an affect on them already has problems? Sounds pretty callous.
How would like you to spend your life being told you are wrong and insane and need treatment for feeling something natural to you...How would you like to be ridiculed by society and denied the same rights as everyone else? You think you wouldn't have any problems? Please. I read your posts. You are offended by people swearing.

Here's something to consider: The world has 7 billion people in it.. all of which are exploiting and exhausting the planet's resources--destroying ecosystems--destroying the biosphere... wiping out species faster than ever before..
Maybe it's a good thing if we stop breeding so much.
Maybe homosexuality is natures way of balancing things out..

You keep twisting my words. I don't tell anyone that they are wrong or dysfunctional. When they are struggling I offer to pray for/with them, I let them talk through what they're feeling. If they are religious I tell them to pray about it. I don't suggest that any person can tell them what's right or wrong. This is an anonymous forum where a discovery has been mentioned, and points of view about that discovery have been solicited. I'm sharing mine. There are doctors who have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is due to an abnormality in the brain. For those that this is true for, would I consider it a sin? Not really. God knows what is in the heart. To go back to the mental illness analogy (however poor,) if someone were to have an imbalance that caused them to commit crimes that were truly out of their control, I don't think they'd be held accountable for those actions in God's court. The same crimes committed by someone who is aware of what they are choosing to do is a different story altogether.

I also never said that everyone would become gay. I'm saying that it would not be something that could survive. If everyone in the world suffered from several other genetic defects, it wouldn't affect the continuation of the species. Some genetic issues do lead to actual infertility, and they are acknowledged as being something that is not "normal," and that a cause and prevention should be found.

I have not told anyone that they are wrong or insane or needed treatment. I wholeheartedly believe that those who berate others or speak hatefully about anyone else has a bigger problem with their salvation than anyone else. I believe that a person who truly thinks or knows that they are gay, and leads a life where they don't judge others is a better person than someone who is heterosexual and is a philanderer or that preaches hate to or about anyone.

I also haven't said that I wouldn't have problems if those things were directed at me. There are other things in my life that I am judged by people for and ridiculed for, many of which I have never had any control over, and while the words sting, they have the right to say them, and I will support that right. As for taking offense at people swearing, I suppose I must reiterate my reasons here.

As one who doesn't swear, and is uncomfortable when others around me swear (usually because of the anger being expressed and the ignorance of the language,) I'd be happy to have this enforced. I don't think it's something I would have voted for though, since I do support freedom of speech, even if I don't agree with it or if it's hateful. Honestly I don't really think it IS enforceable, other than if someone is causing a scene, in which case they can already be arrested for public disorderliness. A private conversation is just that...private, and a word overheard might be taken out of context. (I loved telling my elementary school bus driver, after getting in trouble for chanting "bitch bitch bitch," that I was just talking about a female dog.) So many words only mean anything based on the context they are used in, and the perception of the person using them. Personally I think there are plenty of adjectives to use in much more colorful ways to express the same extreme sentiments much more intellectually. I'll give examples if you want.

Here is another website that talks about being born homosexual. (I also want to point out that I haven't said that it is a choice at all. I'm sure there are some (especially females) who have made it a choice for whatever reason. It's still not my place to judge, and short of having MRI's done of everyone I meet (not logical) I wouldn't know if someone were affected by physiology and chemistry, or choice.)

http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html

You are being very defensive and I'm not attacking your view at all, merely sharing mine. I don't remember if you are gay or not, and it doesn't make a difference to me. There are quite a few gay people on this forum, and several have approached me asking for prayer because they do not want to be gay, they are struggling, they want to know that God still loves them (and He does!) If I've said or done anything that was outright offensive to any of the gay folks here, I'd expect to have been called out on it, privately or otherwise. Others have had rational conversations with me via PM about why they are happy in their skin as they are (being gay.)

 

[acd]

You keep twisting my words. I don't tell anyone that they are wrong or dysfunctional. When they are struggling I offer to pray for/with them, I let them talk through what they're feeling. If they are religious I tell them to pray about it. I don't suggest that any person can tell them what's right or wrong. This is an anonymous forum where a discovery has been mentioned, and points of view about that discovery have been solicited. I'm sharing mine. There are doctors who have come to the conclusion that homosexuality is due to an abnormality in the brain. For those that this is true for, would I consider it a sin? Not really. God knows what is in the heart. To go back to the mental illness analogy (however poor,) if someone were to have an imbalance that caused them to commit crimes that were truly out of their control, I don't think they'd be held accountable for those actions in God's court. The same crimes committed by someone who is aware of what they are choosing to do is a different story altogether.

I also never said that everyone would become gay. I'm saying that it would not be something that could survive. If everyone in the world suffered from several other genetic defects, it wouldn't affect the continuation of the species. Some genetic issues do lead to actual infertility, and they are acknowledged as being something that is not "normal," and that a cause and prevention should be found.

I have not told anyone that they are wrong or insane or needed treatment. I wholeheartedly believe that those who berate others or speak hatefully about anyone else has a bigger problem with their salvation than anyone else. I believe that a person who truly thinks or knows that they are gay, and leads a life where they don't judge others is a better person than someone who is heterosexual and is a philanderer or that preaches hate to or about anyone.

I also haven't said that I wouldn't have problems if those things were directed at me. There are other things in my life that I am judged by people for and ridiculed for, many of which I have never had any control over, and while the words sting, they have the right to say them, and I will support that right. As for taking offense at people swearing, I suppose I must reiterate my reasons here.


Here is another website that talks about being born homosexual. (I also want to point out that I haven't said that it is a choice at all. I'm sure there are some (especially females) who have made it a choice for whatever reason. It's still not my place to judge, and short of having MRI's done of everyone I meet (not logical) I wouldn't know if someone were affected by physiology and chemistry, or choice.)

http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html

You are being very defensive and I'm not attacking your view at all, merely sharing mine. I don't remember if you are gay or not, and it doesn't make a difference to me. There are quite a few gay people on this forum, and several have approached me asking for prayer because they do not want to be gay, they are struggling, they want to know that God still loves them (and He does!) If I've said or done anything that was outright offensive to any of the gay folks here, I'd expect to have been called out on it, privately or otherwise. Others have had rational conversations with me via PM about why they are happy in their skin as they are (being gay.)

I'm not gay, but I have empathy for gay people who struggle to live their lives because outside (delusional, in my opinion) forces pressure them to live according to their beliefs.
I find the moralizing of Christianity (Not Christ him self's teachings, but the church's teachings--which differ greatly) to be very destructive.
And I find it sickening that you associate your moralizing to the field of psychology. I don't think you are being rational, so why would I attempt to discuss this with you in private?

I prefer to talk about it publically, because I think such a view is pervasive and destructive.
I'm sorry if that's harsh, but that's how it seems to me. I don't think Christianity is tolerant of gay people, and I won't pretend to agree with you that it is.

 

[AKM]

The issue you're running into is why does a person feel 'bad' for being gay. The reason you've given, if any, is jaded. The reason one feels bad about being gay in the following instances:






is because they've been taught that it is wrong by a society scared of different people. Its circular logic if you think about it.

I don't believe you have any gay friends, and as much as I detest the usage of the word 'ignorance,' your ignorance is quite astounding. Its also offensive to many gay people, to imply it is their fault they want to commit suicide.

I urge you to go meet a gay person. Based on your posts claiming you're a Christian, I'm called into question if you've ever read the Bible. Try it. Good book.

Please read the post I just responded to [MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION]. To add to your specific points, I also have gay friends that have families that love and support them either way, and they still struggle with it. (Others don't.)

My best friend, from the first day of kindergarten is gay. A good friend from college is flamingly gay (and proud to be such.) My younger brother (who by the way was not religious and is only recently and very loosely for his wife's sake Christian) struggled with his sexuality. I loved him either way through it, and actually was surprised when he got married. They now have 5 young children and are very happy. A close friend at the last job I worked is gay (and he hides it but was comfortable enough with me to share that fact.) Two girls that I went to high school with were, and still are gay. They were dating each other and when I hung out with one the other got jealous. It turns out I was having thoughts that I might be gay. One even offered to help me figure it out. Goofing around was fun, but I wasn't gay. My niece just got married to her partner. Another guy friend from HS has been married to a partner, divorced, and is now very happy dating as many men as he can get his hands on.

As for my saying it's their fault they want to commit suicide....what??? I didn't say that it was their fault.
[QUOTE [MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] - Ask a person with major depression if they want to be depressed... [MENTION=5145]AKM[/MENTION] - True, they usually do not. Ask a person just realizing they may be gay whether they want to be gay...
[MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] - I don't know if you've ever known a schizophrenic, but when they are off their meds and having a break down, they aren't very functional.



[MENTION=5145]AKM[/MENTION] Neither is a person contemplating suicide because they are struggling with thoughts of homosexuality.[/QUOTE]
Struggling with something so difficult that they might be contemplating suicide would render them not very functional either. Would you please stop twisting my words?

 

[FadedFromTime]

Exactly, and I did choose to ignore those feelings because of religious reasons.

 

[AKM]

I'm not gay, but I have empathy for gay people who struggle to live their lives because outside (delusional, in my opinion) forces pressure them to live according to their beliefs.
I find the moralizing of Christianity (Not Christ him self's teachings, but the church's teachings--which differ greatly) to be very destructive.
And I find it sickening that you associate your moralizing to the field of psychology. I don't think you are a rational person, so why would I attempt to discuss this with you in private?

I prefer to call you out on it in public, because I think that your views are pervasive and destructive.
I'm sorry if that's harsh, but that's how it seems to me. I don't think Christianity is tolerant of gay people, and I won't pretend to agree with you that it is.

A large part of what I wrote got lost in the maintenance glitch, so I will try this again.

I too have empathy for gay people. I agree that many so called "Christians" feel that forcing things on people, damning them to hell, and calling others sinners is what they are supposed to do. The ONLY thing I have ever said was that God calls us to LOVE one another, regardless. We are ALL sinners, and no sin is greater than another in God's eyes. He knows what is in the heart. Gay people who are aggressive towards anyone they "think" might be judging them have a greater issue, as does any person who is judgemental towards anyone else.

When did I associate any moralizing with psychology? I am rationally sharing my view of the stated issue. Thoughts both serious and non were asked for, therefore I would think that any person participating in the conversation would be an adult and share their thoughts. I don't mind conversing about my thoughts, but seeing as how I've attacked no one, I don't see why I'm now being attacked.

I never asked you to speak to me privately, I only mentioned that others had. If loving others is pervasive and destructive, then I am guilty. I also haven't said that "Christianity" is tolerant of gay people. I am not "Christianity." I am a Christian. I am a follower of Christ. I do share many of the beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist Church, but yes, the "church" is a human organization, and there are actions taken by people, some of them in power that others blindly follow, who are intolerant. All I know is that based on the Biblical teachings of Christ, we are to love one another. No man can judge another. I'm far from perfect (very very far) but I do my best to see where anyone else is coming from. I'm one of the most tolerant people you could ever meet. I'm a staunch vegan, yet I have friends who are hunters and ranchers. I'm a committed Christian and have friends who are from EVERY variety of religion including none at all. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise, but you are entitled to that opinion. In the meantime, when something comes up that is asking for thoughts, and I have one that I feel is worth sharing, I will, and I will gladly explain anything to clarify if my meaning wasn't clear.

 

[AKM]

Exactly, and I did choose to ignore those feelings because of religious reasons.

Your own religious reasons, or people's religion that tried to make you feel bad about who you were? (The mind is a powerful thing!)