The concept of "tolerance" | INFJ Forum

The concept of "tolerance"

Peace

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For the purpose of this thread, let us assume that I believe that Jews are parasites, people with black colored skin are inferior to those with white skin, and bisexual people are perverted sex addicts.

These would be my opinions.

Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant? If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?

Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant? Why is it inherently bad? People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified? Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?
 
Making statements about limiting anyone's rights on those basis would be the starts of intolerance and actually enacting those limitations would be the peak of intolerance. Anything less than that is ignorance and hatefulness not intolerance.
 
These are very thoughtful questions. I wish more people would ask them! What is the difference between saying "Jews are the sons of the Devil" and saying "Nazis are evil incarnate"?

One of the basics of intolerant thinking is that a person bases their judgment on inappropriate generalizations. Now, there are generalizations that are perfectly appropriate, where a person is simply considering where the top of the statistical bell shaped curve is. The problem with Bigotry is that it is based on FLAWED statistics. Racist comments fit into this category with very few valid exceptions. A similar example of Bigotry is when a person doesn't understand the bell shaped curve, that there are always those who veer to the left or the right; this is the person who when they say "Blacks this" or "Jews that" assumes ALL Blacks this or ALL Jews that.

All this said, it still stands that there are lines we draw in the sand, "This far and no farther." I'm not going to tolerate child killers or rapists or embezzlers. So where do we draw this line?

In less tolerant times and places, the circular line is drawn pretty small. Our particular culture has examined history, and seen some of the awful consequences, and in response has decided that while we will still draw a line, we will make our circle as large as it can possibly be and still have a working society.

The danger is that we might make a mistake and allow some things that in the long run unravel our culture. We don't want to be so open-minded that our brains leek out. Most of the moral arguments of our time are wrapped around this, where liberals are arguing for greater tolerance because they believe that society can handle it, and conservatives are concerned that tolerating certain things will be our undoing.

This question is particularly perplexing to us Jews regarding Israel. Israel is a Jewish state. But how can we remain faithful to being a Jewish state while STILL tolerating those who are not Jews? For example, by and large, businesses shut down on Shabbat, but most Israelis still drive (lighting a far is forbidden on Shabbat by Jewish law, and cars are a combustible engine). Certain sects of Haredim are so offended by this that they throw stones at cars driving through their neighborhoods. But most Jews would say that a prohibition of driving goes too far in restricting people, especially non-Jews--there are plenty of Israelis who are Christian, Muslim, or Secular. So there is the question, we have Jewish law, and we have civil law: Jewish law has to inspire civil law or we would not be a Jewish state, but at the same time, there are plenty of occasions where Jewish law might be better viewed as religious choice than societal law. Thus the conundrum.
 
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Very interesting questions that you put forward :)

I guess my argument would be that normality is essential based upon the minds of the masses.

In Nazi Germany, Jews were bad. In the 18th/19th century according to many Imperial powers, blacks were indeed inferior.
I think the fact is that these "lines" that we supposedly draw are always changing according to the changing nature of our societies.

As a result of increasing levels of secularization in the West, coupled with the growing development of heterogeneous societies (societies which harbour a plurality of ideas), many in the West have had to restrict individuals from e.g. saying that Jews are evil, or blacks are inferior, because of the fact that Jews or blacks exist within societies. As a result of the concepts of liberal democracy and the rise of more relativist thinking (the rejection of the assertion that there exist absolute truths) therefore, governments have an obligation to protect individuals such as Jews or blacks who seem to do no harm to society.

In the case of child molesters or robbers, one can argue contrastingly. It is at this point where there is a direct breach of the rights of others. I guess the idea therefore is to be intolerant to the intolerant, and to be tolerant to the tolerant.

tolerance equating to the respect of others rights and intolerance equating to the disrespect of others rights, leading to the violations of others (say through robbing them or molesting them/their children).

So one can conclude from the above that there are two different types of tolerance

1. tolerating ones views. [e.g. blacks/Jews are bad]
2. tolerating ones actions. [e.g. robbing/molesting]

In the case of the second type of tolerance, one can argue that it is far easier to be intolerant to actions which harm others. This is easily covered by the law. We make many things illegal/do not tolerate things, because they can cause harm to others and impede upon others personal freedoms/rights.

In the case of the first type of tolerance, this is far harder, and I believe it would be dependent very much upon the makeup of a particular society. Of course, there is a conflation between the two types, if one holds views that are so radical they could lead/encourage others to carry out ACTIONS of intolerance, then we draw the line there.

So I guess one can tolerate peoples views providing they don't impeach upon the rights of others/harm others.

All of this is however binded by the minds of the masses. In the west, blacks are generally respected. A few hundred years ago, in the same places, blacks were routinely tortured/abused.

Hope that adds something to the discussion!
 
well im a mongrel :)
if you have any problem with that you bonehead then F.O.A.D
 
For the purpose of this thread, let us assume that I believe that Jews are parasites, people with black colored skin are inferior to those with white skin, and bisexual people are perverted sex addicts.

These would be my opinions.

Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant? If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?

Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant? Why is it inherently bad? People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified? Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?


In my opinion you would be intolerant for simply holding those opinions.
 
For the purpose of this thread, let us assume that I believe that Jews are parasites, people with black colored skin are inferior to those with white skin, and bisexual people are perverted sex addicts.

These would be my opinions.

Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant? If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?

Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant? Why is it inherently bad? People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified? Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?
With those assumptions, youd be intolerant, of course. We must now proceed carefully to avoid falling in the same trap you've fallen in to. You've judged books by their covers, and as we all know, the books contain lots more than the cover and have a reason for being the way they are. Acceptance of this would allow for more tolerance, and in turn, grant you more tolerance from others. You get what you put out, in this case especially. Perhaps if you had been treated more tolerantly, you wouldnt be so intolerant. That is why we must be tolerant to the intolerant to avoid it from being spread like a cancer.
 
ANOTHER point:

Social shunning is not the same as making something illegal. In terms of legality, I'm comfortable with our currect excpectations for freedom of speech, meaning say what you wish but stop short of threatening someone or creating a threat in people's minds. If someone says, "Israelis are just modern Nazis" I think this should be legal. HOWEVER, i'm not going to like such a person. I will have nothing to do with them. I will not allow my children to have a relationship with them. And I would put pressure on my friends to have nothing to do with them. They are welcome to say it far far away from me.
 
What if a majority of people chose to live out the limits of the form of tolerance you seek to enact? Could you live with this?

Conversely, are you willing to abide within the limitations of the social sanctions that you seek to impose on society?

The beauty of tolerance is that there's a grand tension and constant negotiation of boundaries. I think intolerance is most repugnant when it questions the inherent value of any human being.
 
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IMO, there's a difference between tolerance and acceptance.
Tolerance is fundamentally based on justice. Acceptance is based on kindness.

So in short; your form of tolerance (and intolerance) tells so much about your form of justice.


Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant?
To the other party? yes.

If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?
Yes.
Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant?
So far I'm seeing that tolerance related to two sides; objectively, the concept of proof and critical thinking. Socially, the concept of 'social niceties' and political correctness.
Intolerance, in effect, is just a show of the values that opposes either one and/or all concepts.
Why is it inherently bad?
Values and truths, and the form of expression that opposes them. Hence why for one case, intolerance for child molester is accepted but intolerance in racial boundaries isn't.
And there are also a difference about being a self-serving righteous jerk and someone who's simply wrong. Between being annoying and being misguided. People are entitled to their opinions, but you can't expect everyone to like it.
People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified?
Somewhat related to the concept of right and wrong; if the wrong stacks upon, the boundaries of intolerance are also increasing. Thus why most social movements are hellbent in proving that the cause they're trying to bolster is right; they are dealing with values.
See: the case on blacks, the case on GLBTQ.
Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?
Not enough.
 
For the purpose of this thread, let us assume that I believe that Jews are parasites, people with black colored skin are inferior to those with white skin, and bisexual people are perverted sex addicts.

These would be my opinions.

Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant? If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?

Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant? Why is it inherently bad? People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified? Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?

you can dislike something and still tolerate it.
look at the many cases of abused women, or people who stay at a dead end job - just two broad examples


basically, you have every right to think what you please, but you don't have the right to necessarily act on those thoughts.

in some cases i don't think intolerance is bad. i think it largely depends on what the situation is.
 
I think tolerance vs intolerance can be a simple division, if you think of it this way: If you have preconceived ideas on a culture, race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation and you refuse to see the individual (and only see the group), then your views are rather intolerant. I can dislike people, but when I begin disliking groups of people because of the acts of a select few then the problem is with my own thinking.

Society can set up cultures for failure as well. Africa was quite capable without the West coming to rape, pillage, and destroy the people and the landscape. Ireland was quite happy before the British decided to separate the North from the South...and so on. The problem of tolerance is usually an individual mindset. It's someone who believes he or she is better than someone else, and that the other person does not deserve to have what they want. It could be respect, it could be material goods, it could be livelihood, or it could be their lives. In any case, it starts with the belief that others are less than equal to you for one reason or another. When that mindset spreads to a culture, you'll have wars. But it starts small. Small thinking is is how you become intolerant.
 
I wrote this a few days ago, seems relevant:

By default, I do not suffer fools or assholes gladly. Sometimes I wish to, and at other times I refuse to. And, to be honest, I am comfortable filing almost everybody under at least one of these categories. Unfortunately. There is an untamed, heartfelt sentiment within me that wants to be nice, accepting and forgiving of everyone, for everything, but I cannot see how we are to be aware of and-so capable of addressing faults that we refuse to acknowledge. And there are things on this planet that must be addressed.

I think that most of my species is currently buying into a zeitgeist of false social virtues, that of an uncritically fostered will to accept all flaws and differences, simply because they are flaws and differences. It's blatantly unintuitive coddling that absolves a person, and his world, from imperative opportunities for introspection, critique, responsibility and a sense of integrity that has been worked for. I would say that man is entitled to such a life if he were not a member of society, where his every decision has consequences on the world around him.

We cater to irrationality as if it is not synonymous with discordance. As if we don't care about a better world, or a rational one. We try to give everybody a hyper-empowered individual status as if we don't have to live together, and learn how to. Through this idiocy we pretend that lethargy-born sentiments such as 'to each their own' are actually plausible on a planet that is, and only ever will become, more crowded. The result is a bunch of overly entitled individuals that care only about themselves, putting little to no thought into what is right and wrong, and of the consequences of our actions.

I am a fiercely inedependent person, but, in recent, I find myself often wondering, and worrying, if we are not taking things too far. So much of how we utilize our first world 'freedoms' or 'rights' depends on the exploitation of other people. And animals. Anything that is out of sight and thus out of our minds. We appear as complete fools in this circumstance, making decisions sheerly out of inconsideration and unfounded feelings of entitlement. Ruining the lives of others. We pretend that we understand and care about equality, or decency. We are well-versed in declaring that we are imperfect, and that we are no better or more deserving than others. But it's just talk. Political correctness to avoid a scrutiny from others. Moreover, to avoid even our own scrutiny.

Nobody wants to inherit problems. With this culture of tolerance, as well as modesty, it seems fine to us that we should relax completely from the one thing that would keep us from the desire in all of us to execute the most direct and care-free rush to hedonic fulfillment: Critical Thought.

It quickly becomes apparent how full of shit we are, when we dare to make even the slightest of efforts to question ourselves. Why do we have the right to systematically slaughter some species of animals, and to not even be mean to others? Why are child abuse, insanity, misogny and homophobia perfectly acceptable, let alone respectable, simply so long as these things fall under the safety blanket of being a persons religious beliefs? If you really love somebody, why would you prohibit them from anything they may want to do that would make them happy?

We are stewing in non-sense, assuring ourselves that the ability to condone this circumstance is a point of moral grace and virtue, and a path to social harmony. We 'think' that respecting monotheistic viewpoints that do not respect our own makes any sense at all. We are sure that we know our ass from a hole in the ground, despite how little time we devote to the matter. We run on oblivion and arrogance, confident, despite our complete lack of forethought on matters, that we can improvise educated opinions in real-time.

Ultimately, we waste this independence by disempowering everybody to a point where noones opinion is any better or worse. Of course, this is a joke that we fail miserably at. We regularly incarcerate people who cross legal lines and share the rough side of our tongue with people often enough. Some are better at repressing their judgements than others, of course. But these people are merely the most given to a false hierarchy of social conduct. One that tries to justify itself by violating itself, judging other peoples decision to be judgemental as a mistake.

Indeed, it behooves us to abstrain from being careless in our judgements. But this careless spill into misperceiving non-judgement as a sweeping virtue in itself, and that the more is the merrier is hilarious. It is a testament to a zenith of idiocy that we have managed to convince ourselves that it is both intellectually and morally reprehensible to call it like we see it. Let us pause to reacquaint ourselves the definition and function of judging things.

Judgement -
1. an act or instance of judging.
2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, especially in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion
3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity
4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind


If you believe that this is an negligible way of existing, then I find your intuition on the matter to be gravely lacking. I would also surmise that you lack committment to a genuine inquiry of how things are, and what is wrong or right. Seeking to strip any and all power of thought and opinion, the predecessors to action, and thus the possibility for positive change; you undo yourselves. You would point your finger at your brother, who very well may keep more of you in his heart than you do of him, and denounce him as self-righteous. Oblivious that the modern, civilized world that you live in, from which you are even able to have come to know of this persons existence, has been created by some of the most beautiful and treasured self-righteous individuals in the history of our species.

It is only through ignorance, in its aforementioned guises, that we have begun to interfere with a staple means of social progress throughout the entirety of our history. To strip power from the individual is to strip power from us all, propagating an unecessarily tragic unfolding of history, derelict.
 
Tolerance to me is an idealistic viewpoint at this point in history because some people need to die for the good of the planet and for ourselves. I don't want to have to live in a soylent green universe.

But I don't want people to have to die so I am voting for Newt Gingrich who will colonize the moon.
 
Whether or not you fit the description of the word 'tolerant' is a question that you should ask your dictionary.
But I don't think that you can reasonably expect any degree of compassion from the majority if you hold those views.
 
I would think there would have to be a baseline definition of tolerance to answer your question accurately. IMO, tolerance in and of itself is an active process to recognize other individual's rights to live their lives how they see fit given the parameters of societies laws (hence the prohibiition toward child molesters). Given that, it would seem that tolerance is not the "acceptance" of how other's choose to live thier lives, but the acceptance that they have the right to live how they see fit. I think too many people get caught up in the idea that tolerance by definition means that you "approve" of how everyone lives their lives and that isn't really the point.
 
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For the purpose of this thread, let us assume that I believe that Jews are parasites, people with black colored skin are inferior to those with white skin, and bisexual people are perverted sex addicts.

These would be my opinions.

Could I said to be intolerant simply for holding these opinions? If not, then to what degree would I be allowed to act on these opinions before I was considered intolerant? If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant? If I created a thread on a forum to share them with other people, would that make me intolerant? If I refused service to someone or refused to hire or provide housing to someone based on these opinions but I did not share this opinion with them, would I be considered intolerant?

Furthermore, what does it mean to be intolerant? Why is it inherently bad? People are intolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. At what point is intolerance unjustified? Is the concept of tolerance way overblown in our modern society?

The way I percieve tolerance is just living with the fact that the people you 'dislike' are there, and you won't do anything about it.

The literal definition of tolerance is thus:
The capacity to endure continued subjection to something

So really tolerance implies one that is subjected to much "pain" or "discomfort" but is able to withstand and do nothing about it. (i.e. seeing the "inferior" black people, "paraistic" Jews, etc. etc.)
In this sense than you're intolerant because you are making an action (that is, expressing an opinion) which reveals your inability to endure continued subjection to something.
 
Whether or not you fit the description of the word 'tolerant' is a question that you should ask your dictionary.
But I don't think that you can reasonably expect any degree of compassion from the majority if you hold those views.
Compassion is better than tolerance :)
 
[MENTION=4700]Peace[/MENTION]

If I spoke them out loud to other people would that make me intolerant?
In the Netherlands, you might be treated with strong disdain if you said that your ideas apply to others besides yourself.

In Marseilles, you might start a riot if you said something offensive about religion (cf. National Geographic).

In the USA, you would lose your chance for the presidency. :w:

My ESTJ friend would tolerate cussing only in textual form. :w:
 
No you would not be intolerant. In fact you could only tolerate something you do not like. To be intolerant you would have to act in a negative way towards jews, blacks, and bi's. So if you dislike all those people and act positivly to indifferent to them, then you are tolerant.

To the second paragraph I think that people are surprisingly tolerant to child molesters and bank robbers. Otherwise there would be more murders.