Telling apart INTP and INTJ

[technics]

How would you tell apart an INTP from an INTJ? How do you think are they different in the ways they are wired? Motivations, behavior, attitudes?

A good friend of mine is an INTP and I'm an INTJ. We talk a lot, discuss a lot, yet there seems to be hardly any difference between the two of us.

(I also have to apologize for always starting INTJ threads in here, but I've come to the conclusion that you have far better knowledge of people than say INTPc or INTJf. You have to read their threads about this issue, they're written in algebra.).

 

[whytiger]

INTJs tend to be more definitive in their speech and actions. They tend to be more interested in what works rather than exploring a topic completely. Most INTJs are good at setting goals and being proactive. INTPs tend to dislike goals and are more reactive. INTJs are more comfortable telling people what to do and prefer to hold their ground in debate. INTPs are uncomfortable telling people what to do and prefer to give information and let others decide what to do for themselves. They are also more likely to give ground in debate because their main interest is in finding the truth and not so much being right.

 

[Resonance]

Oh god, I've just spent like a week converting from INTP to INTJ and then from INTJ to INFJ.

Um, well, supposedly the function attitudes are completely reversed. So you have:

INTP: Ti > Ne > Si > Fe
INTJ: Ni > Te > Fi > Se

That's like nothing in common, except that you both have an intuition function and a thinking function taking effect some place between your subconscious and your mouth.

So let's examine that a bit.

With Te, an INTJ is very interested in experimenting with things to see what they do, and using that knowledge to build things (usually practical things. Anything from an engineering project to an abstract system, but it has to be something useful by their standards.) The results of their experiments and projects feed into Ni to refine the creative and esoteric visions and models they have dreamed up. So it becomes a case of merely imagining potential and then seeing how it can be realized.

The Ti of an INTP is more isolated. It does its experimenting internally and works on a model that is generated in the raw by Ne. They seek out new ideas which they can refine internally and think hard about, and they play and read to help spark more still. They don't need external confirmation as much; it's sufficient that they consider the idea and decide that assuming the facts they are given are true, their conclusions are correct. Whether the facts actually are true or not, it doesn't really matter. It's the thought that counts. So it becomes a case of seeing potential and then imagining how it could be realized.

I don't know, this is probably wrong lol but I think it might help you spot the differences.

 

[MikeA]

What a lot of people don't realize about Ni, as it is written specifically by Jung, is that Ni as a dominant placement will judge future outcomes, which means it creates expectations from the very beginning. It perceives something, it creates a concept from it, and that concept is its entirety.

- Ni/Se looks at the timeline towards the future as one whole, thus accepts but a few future possibilities, because it discards the unnecessary ones.
- Ne/Si looks at the timeline towards the future in fragments, thus accepts more than one future possibility, because it cannot lessen the amount of future possibilities. It refuse to discard future possibilities because every single one of the future possibilities can still prove true, and this is where the anxiety and the paranoia for future possibilities comes in.

Ne, Ni, Se and Si, all see the same amount of future possibilities. However, it is their inclinations towards what they perceive in the future that matters to what they will discard and what they will not. What I have written above is what people have completely backwards between Ni and Ne, which is the reason why they are so confused about JCF. They think N in general is the function that accepts several future possibilities, but that is not the case, that is ONLY Ne.

If you want a description of Ni that is more accurate than any online description that you may possibly come upon, then I'll write one:

Ni types are likely to judge people by their character, and they won't be able to tell you why-- they just "know" that the character in front of them is unacceptable to their nature (Their standards, their believes, what they say, and what they do). Ni individuals are in fact the harshest most critical judging types of the lot, and are therefore often perceived as arrogant and rude because of it. These types are commonly confused as being the "Sensor-stereotype" that people have created over the years, which is that they are narrow-minded and unacceptable of possibilities. They think these people are Sensors, but in reality they are Ni dominant.

Short version: Ni dominants see all the future possibilities like all the other types, but they only need one future possibility. It's like browsing through the yellow pages; You can see all the phone numbers, but there's only one phone number you're interested in getting.

 

[Matariki]

One has messy hair, the other doesn't.

 

[Lea]

I think it's safe to say that I've know many more INTPs than INTJs or maybe INTPs are easier to spot at least for me anyway.

In my opinion INTPs are more straight forward no beating about the bush kind of people than INTJs. They are not interested in office politics just getting on with the job something I share with them.

They believe in honesty and the existence of an absolute truth something which can bug me profusely. I think I will forever have arguments with them on this point.

They can be deeply cynical and negative about things which I am too at times but for different reasons. And they are more playful and quirky than INTJs when they let their Ti take a short break.

INTPs are people I can talk to for hours and have done and still do for real and in cyberspace. They are essentially in-penetrable gits I constantly feel like hugging (only some of them of course. And believe me there are very few people I actually feel like spontaneously hugging. I don't really get that vibe with INTJs.

I would compare them to what we call in the UK Sherbet: a fizzy, effervescent powder that is highly sweet and acidic at the same time.

Interesting links

http://www.personalitynation.com/
http://www.personalitynation.com/intp/3509-intp-jungian-cognitive-function-analysis.html
http://www.personalitynation.com/intj/3480-intj-jungian-cognitive-function-analysis.html

 

[technics]

INTPs tend to dislike goals and are more reactive. INTJs are more comfortable telling people what to do and prefer to hold their ground in debate. INTPs are uncomfortable telling people what to do

True, although my INTP friend is very organized, too. But it's true, he doesn't like to lead whereas I like to control a group. Though I don't necessarily have to hold ground in debates.

The Ti of an INTP is more isolated. It does its experimenting internally and works on a model that is generated in the raw by Ne.

[MENTION=4302]Resonance[/MENTION] Going from INTP to INTJ to INFJ is quite a long road. How come you confused NT with NF? I can understand mistaking INTP with INTJ, but NT-NF is quite a big gap.

I understand that Ti of the INTP, I suppose. I think that's the sort of thinking within a (logical) framework. I don't like it, though at times it's really practical. But somehow Ti has always been too confining for me, and I always had the feeling that if your framework (assumptions) are wrong, that the truth can always slip through under your model. Ni is more holistic, a bit more inaccurate, but it can grasp more.

Ni as a dominant placement will judge future outcomes, which means it creates expectations from the very beginning. ... They think N in general is the function that accepts several future possibilities, but that is not the case, that is ONLY Ne. ... Ni types are likely to judge people by their character, and they won't be able to tell you why-- they just "know" that the character in front of them is unacceptable to their nature ...

Do the INFJs here agree with this? The first is certainly something I do, but I do expect several future possibilities, not just one. I don't think anyone could pin the future down to one track. And I'm very bad in assessing people. And in addition to that, my addiction to MBTI has made me see people through the MBTI glasses, and no longer through intuition - which annoys me somehow.

I would compare them to what we call in the UK Sherbet: a fizzy, effervescent powder that is highly sweet and acidic at the same time.

[MENTION=4127]Lea[/MENTION] The INTP or the INTJ?

 

[Trifoilum]

dealing with INTP feels like dealing with someone, far up, up uuuuuup above, in the tower of books.

dealing with INTJ feels like dealing with...some random alien sculpture in front of you.
Surmising what I knew.

 

[Jungian Trip]

Lea

Those are great links. I'd never read them before. I struggled with whether I was an INTJ or INTP and functional analysis readily cleared it up for me. Thank you for sharing the links.

 

[enfp can be shy]

Does your friend agree that you are so alike? If not - maybe that's one of the differences between the two types.

These two are like elephants and mosquitoes. Mosquitoes buzz and sting and it itches you for days, but are also very fragile beings; they may poison you or may stimulate you to "wake up" when you should. Elephants may occasionally go crazy and cause massive damage to their surroundings, but are generally harmless and very thick-skinned slow pushers with incredible memory.

 

[This]

INTPs come off very sarcastic to me a lot of the time, when I think "troll" I tend to think INTP >_<. that's probably just my biases though. I think it also depends on the sex of the individual I've personally noticed male and female INTJs are quite a bit different from one another.

[MENTION=4302]Resonance[/MENTION] Going from INTP to INTJ to INFJ is quite a long road. How come you confused NT with NF? I can understand mistaking INTP with INTJ, but NT-NF is quite a big gap.

I initially believed I was INTJ because I use my Ti to filter whether my empathy is worth dealing with or not to a certain extent and I believe my Ni is weak. What helped me figure it out was the dynamics between Fe/Ti and Te/Fi

 

[gps]

How would you tell apart an INTP from an INTJ?

That would depend on who and what type(s) you `are' or test-as.
I've venture that most INFJs would recognize more similarities in INTJs.
As an INTP I see INxJs as cut from the same cloth woven from obsession for closure & certainty, compartmentalization, and snap-to-grid thinking, functional fixedness, and tendency to refrain from painting outside the box.

How do you think are they different in the ways they are wired?
Motivations, behavior, attitudes?

If you spread out both over both a normal distribution curve and a full spread of Enneagram types you'll notice the variability.
I've noticed that the core Enneagram type for both is 5.
In a poll taken in the yahoo group INTP-type a few years back 50% of those responding self-reported as Enneagram type 5.

Keirsey's application of the term `rationals' to all the xNTx MBTI character types to arrive at his NT/Rationals `Temperament' obscures a distinction I've noticed: NTJs tend to rationalIZE ... INTJs included.
By this I mean that their thinking starts at the closure and certanty of a J and then backtracks to shore up the end goal.
Process is held as variable with respect to the invariable ends as the INTJ's ends-justifies-the-means goal-seeking processes are manifested.

For INTPs Process is primary and goals are typically soft, flexible, and/or variable.

Ps are said to have a `play ethic' in contrast with the Js `work ethic'.
So this plays out with INTPs quite often outperforming the INTJs by playing as the INTJs work, toil, strive, etc.

A good friend of mine is an INTP and I'm an INTJ.
We talk a lot, discuss a lot, yet there seems to be hardly any difference between the two of us.

I've had a few INTJ friends where this was the case for an interval.
I've noticed that I could pretty much figure out what makes the INTJ tick but they rarely if ever figure out what floats my boat.

(I also have to apologize for always starting INTJ threads in here, but I've come to the conclusion that you have far better knowledge of people than say INTPc or INTJf.
You have to read their threads about this issue, they're written in algebra.).

You got a problem with algebra?
Let A be an element of the set of all INTJs
Let B be an element of the set of all INTPs ...

Frankly, without awareness of the Enneagram type of the INTx there is too much variability between generic INTJs and INTPs for any take-away message or heuristics to do one much good.

Enneagram 5w6 types of both INTJ and INTP both seem to buy on to the same myth of objectivity and confuse and conflate the consensus reality of `scientists' or `objectivists' for `Objectivity'.

Enneagram 5w4 types of both INTJ and INTP seem more prone to individualistic ways of thinking and more capable of intersubjective interactions with co-equal peers ... as well as having more of an artistic bent which makes them less dorky, dweeby, and nerdy than their 5w6 counterparts.

I had an INTJ woman `friend' who also tested as an Enneagram type 8.
If you want to interact with someone who KNOWs they are RIGHT and can only see things from one `objective' perspective I recommend you find one of these.

To close, the J vs P feature and how intuition is expressed seem the biggies to me.
As an INTP 5w4 I seem to synthesize new ways of looking at things and thinking outside the box.
INTJs seem to intuit to themselves then act -- without warning -- in ways which prune the otherwise ramifying tree of emergent phenomena, then, like so many J types use the post_hoc `had to' in an attempt to justify their unilateral actions.
If I want someone who sets personal goals and hidden agendas then act unilaterally while trashing fair play and Process ... then rationalize their attitudes and actions after the damage is done I'll go looking for an INTJ 5w6, 6w5, 8, or 1.
If I want someone with whom to `play' in a peer-to-peer sort of way I look for INxP 4w5 or 5w4.
These are just my personal preferences.

As for `telling'/discerning between INTP and INTJ ... unless he or she has it tatooed on his or her forehead you're not going to `know' anyway.
So we're just speaking categorically and hypothetically here.
As both may only constitute about 1% of the general population you're not likely to bump into either out in public spaces all that often.
And when you do you are likely to not recognize them as they've typically learned to keep their necks down and quack like Sensate `ducks' as per the protective coloration of `ugly ducklings'.

 

[sassafras]

No function discussion, just my own personal observations:

I noticed that when INTPs make a joke they think is funny, they kind of stifle a laugh half-way through telling it. They also seem a bit more expressive (compared to an INTJ).

With INTJs, and indeed, most Ni-dominants, it's kind of hard to tell when they're being sarcastic or facetious. They've got a very good poker-face.

INTJ's tend to respond to incentives and they appear more goal-oriented. They're 'carrot' people. They want to know what's in it for them. INTPs tend to respond to a fear of consequences, and are 'stick' people; they want to know, 'what will happen if I don't do it' or what must be done to avoid a certain outcome. INTPs have a very hard time getting motivated as they will get caught up in the system rather than experiencing the process.

INTPs are more prone to analysis-paralysis. INTJs are less likely to stagnate. INTJs will ask for help sooner than INTPs will.

 

[Resonance]

Going from INTP to INTJ to INFJ is quite a long road. How come you confused NT with NF? I can understand mistaking INTP with INTJ, but NT-NF is quite a big gap.

Not really. Ns in general as well as introverts tend to resonate well with each other, regardless of other stuff, and by cognitive function interaction, INFJs are very nearly INTPs. I never really had a good grasp on Ne-Ni (who does?) and people always pegged me as an N-dominant (INTPs are supposedly Ti-dominant) - plus, at INTPc there's a very obvious (usually) unspoken social contract regarding INTPs as opposed to nons.

Anyway, I'm just saying.

I understand that Ti of the INTP, I suppose. I think that's the sort of thinking within a (logical) framework. I don't like it, though at times it's really practical. But somehow Ti has always been too confining for me, and I always had the feeling that if your framework (assumptions) are wrong, that the truth can always slip through under your model. Ni is more holistic, a bit more inaccurate, but it can grasp more.

It doesn't have to be practical. That's the point. The INTP doesn't care about catching bits of truth that might slip under his framework; the whole thing is invalidated if anything does, and he's back to square 1. Although he might be able to use some of the same parts in the new one. I think the devastation when this happens is why a lot of INTPs prefer to focus on abstract systems with no real-world implications, like maths and philosophy; there's no way some little empirical study can come along and topple their ivory tower.

Do the INFJs here agree with this? The first is certainly something I do, but I do expect several future possibilities, not just one. I don't think anyone could pin the future down to one track.

It depends on a lot of things - upbringing, religion, ability to self-delude and rationalize. Personally I tend to see a lot of possibilities but there's always one correct course of action, which addresses all of them or almost all.

And I'm very bad in assessing people.

It's more of things like assuming someone is unintelligent because of their bad writing or assuming someone is irrational because of a hypocritical complaint they made. Of course, there's 'vibes', too, but I think that's more of a Ni-Fe thing.

And in addition to that, my addiction to MBTI has made me see people through the MBTI glasses, and no longer through intuition - which annoys me somehow.

If you stop thinking about MBTI for a while it goes away ;P

Frankly, without awareness of the Enneagram type of the INTx there is too much variability between generic INTJs and INTPs for any take-away message or heuristics to do one much good.

I'd tend to agree with this, although Enneagram is just one way of narrowing it down. Nonetheless, the point remains that there is a lot of variance within those 16 boxes.

 

[Lea]

I would compare them to what we call in the UK Sherbet: a fizzy, effervescent powder that is highly sweet and acidic at the same time.

@Lea The INTP or the INTJ?

I was referring to INTPs. They are (often not always) playful but cutting in their sarcasm. INTJs aren't typicially like this in my experience... or a lot less anyway.

 

[Lea]

Lea

Those are great links. I'd never read them before. I struggled with whether I was an INTJ or INTP and functional analysis readily cleared it up for me. Thank you for sharing the links.

You're welcome Jungian Trip!

 

[bickelz]

If you want a description of Ni that is more accurate than any online description that you may possibly come upon, then I'll write one:

Ni types are likely to judge people by their character, and they won't be able to tell you why-- they just "know" that the character in front of them is unacceptable to their nature (Their standards, their believes, what they say, and what they do). Ni individuals are in fact the harshest most critical judging types of the lot, and are therefore often perceived as arrogant and rude because of it. These types are commonly confused as being the "Sensor-stereotype" that people have created over the years, which is that they are narrow-minded and unacceptable of possibilities. They think these people are Sensors, but in reality they are Ni dominant.

I'd agree with this but there seems to be some elements of Fi in this which is why I think that, myself in particular, might be infp instead of infj even though infp doesn't fit. . Even though we are judging types, I feel like IxxJ types are less like a "judging type" than ExxJ types because we lead with an introverted perception function which makes us okay with openness (especially Ni).

I wouldn't call Ni doms narrow minded even though we might seem that way. Usually, we've evaluated all sides to an argument before making a decision. We throw things out that don't match so when someone offers new perspective, we will listen. But if we've already thought of it, we just say no and have trouble explaining why their perspective will not work.

The thing with Ni is that when we see what we want or need, we just now that it's the way to do something. And like you mentioned above, we just know there's something is off about somebody when we meet them. We're open to new information if there is new information that could mean our initial feeling is wrong. But usually we cannot put a finger on how to describe why we don't like something/someone.

 

[Lea]

Do the INFJs here agree with this? The first is certainly something I do, but I do expect several future possibilities, not just one. I don't think anyone could pin the future down to one track. And I'm very bad in assessing people. And in addition to that, my addiction to MBTI has made me see people through the MBTI glasses, and no longer through intuition - which annoys me somehow.

Personally I agree, I often can envisage several future possibilities not just the one. I also often can think of several solutions to the same problem which are in my mind equally valid depending which of the several future possibilities I've come up with is being considered.

That's where I often have arguments with INTPs because they will argue that there is only 'one best' solution! There is no sense in discussing things as if there were more than one according to them.

My impression of INTPs' way of solving problems is that they start by collecting all the facts through their Ne. When they are satisfied that the necessary facts have been collected then they put them into a Ti frame. Their assumption is that all facts can be collected.

I start by looking at a problem from as many vantage points as possible to build a full a picture as I can. I don't assume I can or ever will have all the data. So I don't believe we can perceive the absolute truth unlike INTPs.

As to deciding which solution is the best, lots of different criteria can be used, and I believe you chose those criteria based on your values (T, F or other, there are plenty of choices). What is important to me is being aware of what values you are using to chose your criteria so I often like to debate the chose of criteria in quite some depth.

In the beginning I was also addicted to MBTI. I used it incessantly. But it has it's limits you can't use it to predict with a great deal of accuracy how someone is going to behave in a particular situation for example. You can't use it to predict if a person is a liar and a cheat or if they is going to be a good parent or partner. Or at least I don't think you should.

I have found that behavioural psychology has often provided me very concrete and practical solutions particularly when it comes to the dos and don't of communication.

 

[MikeA]

Do the INFJs here agree with this? The first is certainly something I do, but I do expect several future possibilities, not just one. I don't think anyone could pin the future down to one track. And I'm very bad in assessing people. And in addition to that, my addiction to MBTI has made me see people through the MBTI glasses, and no longer through intuition - which annoys me somehow.

I don't want anyone to relate what I have written, I want them to revamp their skewed view of JCF back to how Jung intended. There are only 2 Ni dominants on this forum as I have managed to find so far, and none of them has posted in this thread so far. So far 90% of people participating in Typology Communities such as this seems to think they are Ni dominant spite Ni being the least popular function. N being the least popular function, yet everyone think they are one. I don't buy it. Especially considering how people think Sensors are what they are. "I like Sci-Fi, and I try to keep an open mind. I dream a lot too. So I must be iNtuitive." Is wrong.

However, I shouldn't really care. It's just that I hear these people whine about how they want to use MBTI as a tool to improve themselves, yet they insist they are a type like INTJ and INFJ when they are not.

 

[This]

I don't want anyone to relate what I have written, I want them to revamp their skewed view of JCF back to how Jung intended. There are only 2 Ni dominants on this forum as I have managed to find so far, and none of them has posted in this thread so far. So far 90% of people participating in Typology Communities such as this seems to think they are Ni dominant spite Ni being the least popular function. N being the least popular function, yet everyone think they are one. I don't buy it. Especially considering how people think Sensors are what they are. "I like Sci-Fi, and I try to keep an open mind. I dream a lot too. So I must be iNtuitive." Is wrong.

However, I shouldn't really care. It's just that I hear these people whine about how they want to use MBTI as a tool to improve themselves, yet they insist they are a type like INTJ and INFJ when they are not.

Because clearly you can see through other peoples own eyes.