[split] Judging Functions and Their Inner Workings

[IndigoSensor]

There's probably a few INFJ straight males on the INTP forum which have been mistyped, such as myself. Men don't always get validation for their feelings, so Ti can be a more valid way of handling the world. It always has been for me. School, work, family life... Ti gets me furthest, not Fe. Fe is just for the close and personal stuff, or when I'm having a really good time with friends.

My family is the type that validates T decision making rather than F decision making.

@Razare:

I'm gay, but I think this could apply to any INFJ in some way. I think part of the problem is people equate F with feelings and illogic. That usually isn't the case believe it or not, there is just a huge stigma tied to it. No one likes to appear illogical or overly emotional. My Fe is a beast, but I actually use it in the absence of emotion largely, and base a lot of things off logical thought processes. That made be think it was Te for a while, but it's not. You can still do the loops of logic through any judging function.

There is this assumption that Fe is a crying emotional mess. INFJ's can be like that, but most aren't. Because it is an auxillary function, it is not externally expressed as strongly; it's internalized, and thus doesn't actually look like stereotypical Fe in some ways. So if one feels emotions strongly, but don't express them, or use them as justifications for logic, then they likely won't test as an F in most cases.

When someone who is deeply bothered by the idea of being unintelligent, emotional, or illogical, they are going to fancy themselves to not be those. When one meets MBTI for the first time, there is a high chance they will test T. This is actually why INFJ's can test as INTP. They see T as a better more logical process and favor it over the flowery assumingness of F (which on most tests is made to look weak and or girly). However, that sort of process is going to effect another peception; the J/P axis. P often seems much less restrictive and pleasent. That is actually where there F ends up emerging from, because it makes up for the cold nature that T often assumes. Thus, you get INTP, which often appears as quite intelligent, logical, and fair/balenced. Something INFJ's will strive for (who wouldn't want to be that)?

I may not be straight, but I certainly do not like to be seen as girly, illogical, and emotional (it gets to me when people think that of me). No guy really wants to be seen that way because it is largely unattractive. There is a small minority of people who do find it attractive. It's just that though, a minority.

 

[KazeCraven]

@IndigoSensor:

My Fe is a beast, but I actually use it in the absence of emotion largely, and base a lot of things off logical thought processes. That made be think it was Te for a while, but it's not. You can still do the loops of logic through any judging function.

There is this assumption that Fe is a crying emotional mess. INFJ's can be like that, but most aren't. Because it is an auxillary function, it is not externally expressed as strongly; it's internalized, and thus doesn't actually look like stereotypical Fe in some ways. So if one feels emotions strongly, but don't express them, or use them as justifications for logic, then they likely won't test as an F in most cases.

Okay, this is somewhat of a shock. What makes the function Fe then? Is it just an aptitude of using extroverted judgment in the realm of people?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Okay, this is somewhat of a shock. What makes the function Fe then? Is it just an aptitude of using extroverted judgment in the realm of people?

@KazeCraven:

Ok, this is very hard for me to explain, so bare with me. I largely came to realise this internally. Nevetheless, you got the core of it.

I do indeed use Fe in the absence of emotional decisions, and I try very hard to make sure that I don't slip and do it on accident. I made decisions based on people, and everyone else around me. To me, people themselves are logical, and I treat as such. That statement might seem alien to you as an INTP, but it is how it is for me. When I make a decision, I first concider the consequences of what will happen if I am to take such a course of action. The reprecussions against other people are weighted heavily. It comes from a system of values that I hold (something that is a hallmark of Fe). I derived them logically, from what I see other people around me say, do, and like. It all comes together into a sort of list of "A means I do action B because C and D are in this situation". I never let my emotions and feelings cloud such decisions (or at least, I try to). Even if I feel like I was slighted or something by such a situation, I still withhold the set of values of how I am to interact and decide. All of this sounds based strictly on people, but this can very much apply to things completely independent of people.

I for a long time thought 1/2 of this stuff was Te, when it is actually nearly entirely Fe. An analogy I like to think of comparing Fe to Te is Fe thinks like "A is to B as B is to C", and Te thinks like "A+B=C". Fe is much more flow based, and Te is much more point based.

The thing is Fe certainly can be used with emotions to weigh things and decide. I just personally find it to be extremely unfair to others in the majority of cases, and to not allow them to fall into my judgement and decision lines. I am by no means perfect. My Fe often see how things should be (again, a hallmark of Fe), and will try to make it so. It just needs to be stopped when infringement goes to far.

I probablly missed some stuff, so if you got any questions please ask.

 

[KazeCraven]

@IndigoSensor: well, I have both questions and comments on this. My first inclination was to say that this is just Fe being filtered well by Ti, but of course I was quick to remember that my Fe is pretty distant from my psyche. Now I think I get what you mean though.

So, in short, Fe is a function that makes decisions based on inferred values of other people. I could say that Fe is an external value system that dictates your own behavior. In fact, the only reason Fe can be emotional is because it is highly linked with values, and values are emotionally charged.

My questions, though, are
1) would you agree with the above description?
2) are your own values a part of that system, and if so, do they have an increased weight (assuming this is something you know)?
3) do you think Te is just less adept at discerning what to do with people due to its structure?
4) you're less familiar with Fi, but do you think Fi can also be 'logical'?

 

[IndigoSensor]

1) would you agree with the above description?

Pretty much. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the values of others is the only way Fe can be emotional, but it is indeed one of the bigger reasons.

2) are your own values a part of that system, and if so, do they have an increased weight (assuming this is something you know)?

My own values largely came from that system, and yes they are part of it. It's all inclusive. I wouldn't concider them to have more weight. Everything is highly situationally dependent. In some situations I will put my own values and judgements ahead of others because I feel that they are correct for what ever reasons. Sometimes I put the values of others ahead, even in spite of that. Context is extremely important to Fe, and that is one of the big differing factors between Fe and Te. It's this context that really differs between F and T in general. Te and Ti largely don't need context (they are largely, "faster" of the four judgement functions).

3) do you think Te is just less adept at discerning what to do with people due to its structure?

Te can figure out what people do just as easily; all of the judging functions have that potential. Te is just based much more heavily off ethics, and not so much on morals. As such, Te really just doesn't care about people as much. It will only care about people when it needs to. When it feels it doesn't need to, it simply will not because that's just not it's focus. This is why Te gets a reputation for being cold. However, just as Fe can function in the absence of emotion, Te can function with tons of it. Te can make decisions off emotions and feelings. It's just going to enact them differently, and respond to things differently then Fe would. All of the functions have potential to have diffuculty with discerning what to do with people. I would order it like this Fe>Te>Fi>Ti as far as how well people are dealt with. Sometimes, Te can be extremely adept at dealing with people. Fe gets locked up in it's values all the time, and seldom compromizes them unless it is for the greater good. Te can compromize pretty much anything. So at times Te will deal with people better cause it has far fewer barriers and lines.

4) you're less familiar with Fi, but do you think Fi can also be 'logical'?

Fi can certainly be logical. It's just much more internal then Fe is. It sorts out these feelings and ideas on it's own and preforms decisions. Just take the loops and information I explained before and turn them inward on the indiviual. Fi actually has potential to be more logical then Fe, because it considers the worth of everything to the self. It will also try out many different things and methods before it settles as well. Fe largely won't do such a thing. I will say this much though, Fi has the most potential to get trapped in illogic, espically when it's hurt, because it will reject the external.

 

[KazeCraven]

@IndigoSensor: err, just to get an idea, can you describe (perhaps briefly) what you think the difference between Fi and Ti is? The idea that the thinking functions don't need a context would explain a whole lot, but now I'm not so sure what Fi and Ti really are doing from your framework.

As a starting point, I would say that so far it looks like Fi actually can (and does) do logical analysis on impersonal subjects, but it's just significantly less adept at it because it's stuffed with concerns about context which really are irrelevant in most cases. Conversely, Ti is more to-the point and 'objective' in the sense that it is more concerned with making sense of things. Though I'm starting to think I'm adding in ideas from other perspectives that don't fit/aren't critical to your model.

ETA: I suppose this is getting way off topic, so if you feel like answering this one, feel free to message me.

 

[Razare]

I still want to hear Indigo's answer, but my guess would be Fi vs. Ti is context as Indigo said before.

Fi processes things based on value to you, and is more capable of sympathy and perhaps empathy.

Ti processes things on whatever context you give it, if any. Ti will just come up with a bunch of options, weigh those options without concern for personal value, unless you specifically apply that into the equation.

Ti has the ability to be detached and sit from a neutral vantage point. Fi, doesn't receive that luxury, but it also means Fi will have specific advantages if used right.

That's my intuitive guess. Let's see if I'm right!!!

 

[IndigoSensor]

[mods]Split out from the Straight INFJ Males thread, as this was going off topic[/mods]

I will answer in more detail when I have time, but Razere more or less said it already.

 

[Razare]

 

[KazeCraven]

Hmm, yes this is a pretty cool theory. I like it because it makes the two types of judging functions a whole lot more similar, which is how I was seeing them.

This is my current understanding:

F = T + values + context.

This equation makes Fx functions more robust in that they are most adept at handling people and weighing the situational importance of things. Tx, while more lightweight and able to handle impersonal subjects very well, does not naturally include a context or values. Thus Tx must get information from a feeling function to be able to set the proper context and values (this information is too complex to just 'perceive') if it wants to operate in the human realm well.

Not sure if I've gotten that right, but so far this still explains the differences between INTJ and INFJ, where the INTJ is much more 'crisp' in thought because there's less connected up there. It also explains the prototypical differences in males (who are T's as prototype) and females (who are F's as prototypes). Men store their ideas in 'boxes', and an issue isn't connected with another issue because we've just defined the context already to begin with. Women (i.e. actually F-types) have a whole lot more connected and one thing will spark another and another, and so forth. Another point, which I'm less sure about, would be that Ti-dominants in particular have a tendency to apply principles across contexts and say that the differences between the two situations give us no reason to act differently in this particular situation. This would also explain why Ti-doms with an undeveloped inferior function don't actually 'get' what people mean a whole lot and tend to not see things that others consider 'obvious' within the realm of people (though this could just be my brother, heh; I don't seem to get this problem much).

It also explains quite a bit from my own life, I think. When I want to do really well on a test, I have to get a whole lot of feedback so that I know what to expect on the tests as I don't naturally define a specific context in my mind. Especially in areas such as literary analysis, I really don't know where to start until I hear what a few others are saying, and anything I do 'on my own' has a very high chance of coming out of left field or, at least, being very unexpected.

ETA: also, though the thread this was split from shows that there is still a clear predominance of straightness within INFJs, I can't help but wonder whether a big part of T vs F actually is a masculine vs feminine brain. This would be in contrast to just having F being defined as 'effeminate' by culture when we take into account findings such as the fact that first born sons are less likely to be effeminate than subsequent sons (statistically speaking, and a somewhat controversial idea I suppose, which I heard about in my neuroscience class). I'm also curious as to whether the T/F function is actually a dynamic difference, though I suspect it's not and that any seeming middle ground ability would be due to the interaction of an opposite function (i.e. Fe with Ti).

 

[Razare]

According to online tests, my brain leans slightly feminine. Yet my T is very strong, it's odd.

I think I get the female brain score because of my concern for social harmony. Women usually also possess this characteristic, I have noticed.