Shoot First, Ask Questions Later Police Mentality | INFJ Forum

Shoot First, Ask Questions Later Police Mentality

bolognamacaroni

bolognamacaroni

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Mar 30, 2016
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The Philando Castile and Alton Sterling videos are all over the media right now. Black Lives Matter is protesting across the country. Minnesota, Louisiana, Texas, and New York are in an uproar. Beyoncé is advocating. The President is addressing the matter from a NATO summit half way across the world.

Yet police officers continue to get away with excessively shooting people dead, at point blank, with little more than an administrative leave or temporary suspension.

Why is this happening? Why is this allowed to continue?

This isn't meant to be a black lives matter/blue lives matter/all lives matter debate.

This is about understanding the force's obligation to protect, serve, and remain justices of the peace; and why there seems to be a disconnect between the tangible meaning of what that oath means and who it applies to.

I am in no way condoning the police force or those who serve it. I have several friends who were trained to be officers, served on the force, or are currently serving. I pray for their safety as much as I pray my friend's black son, and hope he isn't found at the wrong place, at the wrong time.
 
It seems clear to me, this is a problem of racism. I don't know how can this problem of racism be addressed and resolved throughout law enforcement?

The training seems to be not appropriate, why are officers aiming firearms at all, in these situations? Surely a firearm is extreme? Why not a taser? Aren't tasers highly effective in immobilising someone in a way that is not fatal?

Please excuse any offense I may be causing by asking these questions, due to my ignorance... thank you for your patience
 
As much as I understand the anger and frustration, shooting and killing police is not the answer. You can't solve problems of violence with more violence. It's senseless. Innocent people just because of race are being drawn into something for which they're not at fault. Yes, something needs to be done, but it pisses me off more that people are using their anger to create more hurt and pain. How does this help?

[FONT=&quot]A Dallas policeman keeps watch on a street in downtown Dallas, Thursday, July 7, 2016, following reports that shots were fired during a protest over two recent fatal police shootings of black men. (AP Photo/LM Otero)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]DALLAS — Four officers have been killed and at least seven more injured in a hail of gunfire during a demonstration organized to protest this week’s police-involved shootings in Minnesota and Louisiana, Dallas police confirm.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Police Chief David Brown said two snipers ambushed law enforcement from an elevated position, striking 10 officers and a civilian from an elevated position. The chief said they are also investigating information that the suspects may have planted a bomb in the downtown area.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“They planned to injure and kill as many law enforcement officers as they could,” Brown said at a news conference.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Two people were reportedly in custody shortly before midnight local time. Police have not confirmed if they are the shooters. One of the men turned himself in shortly after police published his photo on social media.[/FONT]
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/three-officer-fatally-shot-during-000000452.html
 
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I agree with Gist, But for a lot of reasons, I am not surprised that people are taking things into their own hands. One of the reasons why I am not surprised is that it has sometimes seemed to me in the past that this is very much a part of the philosophy of civilians holding guns in the United States - that if law enforcement officials will have guns, then so should civilians, in order to keep the law enforcement in line. Sorry I am not articulating that philosophy very well, and I am not attempting to express a gun control agenda at all, but isn't that part of it?

Would it help at all if representation of people of colour in law enforcement be increased? Or more mandated rotatation of white law enforcement officers to work with people of colour?
 
Violence is an universal language, everyone understands it
 
Of course they get away with it. It's the police. Who's going to stop them? Themselves? If they would do that then it wouldn't be happening.
 
Asa said:
So, retaliation has begun. I don't know what is going to happen now, but it is going to be ugly.

Dallas shooting: 5 police officers killed by snipers during protest
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/us/dallas-police-shooting-live-updates/index.html
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They are saying 12 officers were actually shot. It was an ambush. Not good. What are people thinking? Condolences for the officers and their families and friends. Wouldn't want to be the Chief LEO of Dallas right now. Tough decisions to make.
 
Well I guess in a completely unrelated state to the last two shootings there's a handful of dead police officers now and apparently there are IED's planted. This is probably the best way to make police play nice.

There's a database online of all people who have been killed by police. A ton of them are white. Lots of them are latino. Lots of them are black. Lots of them fulfill a multitude of different demographic check boxes. Not saying that racism isn't a thing here but... I mean... Lots of people get gunned down by the police and they're not stopping gay pride parades to get more inclusion or stopping highway traffic or you know... shooting up a police force.

I know I sound dismissive but it seems to be really, really ineffective.

I read something the other day about how MLK never retaliated with violence and all of his protests were made in peace and through that there was change. I don't know why people are rioting and destroying their own cities or shooting each other up, etc. It seems to be making things worse.
 
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SpecialEdition said:
Well I guess in a completely unrelated state to the last two shootings there's a handful of dead police officers now and apparently there are IED's planted. This is probably the best way to make police play nice.

There's a database online of all people who have been killed by police. A ton of them are white. Lots of them are latino. Lots of them are black. Lots of them fulfill a multitude of different demographic check boxes. Not saying that racism isn't a thing here but... I mean... Lots of people get gunned down by the police and they're not stopping gay pride parades to get more inclusion or stopping highway traffic or you know... shooting up a police force.

I know I sound dismissive but it seems to be really, really ineffective.

I read something the other day about how MLK never retaliated with violence and all of his protests were made in peace and through that there was change. I don't know why people are rioting and destroying their own cities or shooting each other up, etc. It seems to be making things worse.
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The stats are available for anyone willing to look them up. 47% of police killings are white victims, and 24% are black, nearly double deaths for whites despite the fact that blacks produce nearly half of the crime in the country due to the horrible ghetto situations they are born into. Blacks certainly deserve protection in the US, and I firmly believe the ghetto situation needs to be addressed as soon as possible, but what people refuse to talk about is now being displayed in its most violent form: the 'Black Lives Matter' movement is and always was a hate group, much like the black panther group in-which they are told by racists to kill white cops where they see them, creating the 'Ferguson' effect in-which the police are afraid of even patrolling ghettos in-case they get shot at. This doesn't mean I don't think police brutality is relevant; it certainly is a problem, but to continue to pin this via a white vs black issue is exactly what hate groups like BLM want. Further division.

Politicians up and down the country have spent the last few years propping up these groups. Bernie Sanders (who said that white people don't understand ghettos, not racist?) and Hillary Clinton, even Barack Obama; they have all expressed their support for 'Black Lives Matter'. It's a group full of people that patrol the streets shouting at white people and demanding their respect, as if it were some kind of religious cult. I've watched plenty of videos to confirm this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36745862
 
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Maybe, out of all the people commenting on her today, I may be the best qualified to comment since I probably live closest to the situation in Dallas (and, not coincidentally, I happen to be Black). At the root of it, I think it may be a pride issue. The issue on both sides to point fingers and blame the other for the actions of a few, but no one willing to say, "I see you're in pain, and I'm willing to stand with you in your pain." The color of skin is immaterial.

The reason why MLK's movement worked was because it didn't involve just one group. Everyone worked together, united, to want to see change. Everyone grieved together and decided, collectively, to stand with one another in solidarity to make a change. Everyone put down hatred and picked up peace, and regarded the problems from that angle. Can we do that now? I'm not exactly sure. We've gone too long without talking about these issues without divisive rhetoric. Taking up arms due to fear is not the answer. Challenging each other to have a dialog that doesn't devolve into a shouting match may be a start. Another is to accept that we're all part of the problem, and to stop blaming everyone else. No one is "right." We're all wrong. Otherwise, we would've fixed the problem by now.
 
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So these are some statistics regarding deaths of unarmed people by police. It's just one study, so I'm not taking it as gospel truth any more than any other set of numbers that pop up in the wake of media frenzies. My only point in bringing this up is that if you are exploring disparity with regard to race, I think that specificity in the search criteria is important.

In 2015, The Post documented 990 fatal shootings by police, 93 of which involved people who were unarmed. Black men accounted for about 40 percent of the unarmed people fatally shot by police and, when adjusted by population, were seven times as likely as unarmed white men to die from police gunfire, The Post found.
Researchers, who used data collected by The Post, found that when other factors are considered, the racial disparity persists, but it is lower — twice the rate for unarmed black men compared with unarmed white men. Researchers adjusted for the age of the person shot, whether the person suffered from mental illness, whether the person was attacking a police officer and for the crime rate in the neighborhood where the shooting occurred.
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In the study, researchers wrote that their analysis of the 990 fatal shootings in 2015 “suggests the police exhibit shooter bias by falsely perceiving blacks to be a greater threat than non-blacks to their safety.”
Black individuals shot and killed by police were less likely to have been attacking police officers than the white individuals fatally shot by police, the study found.
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The Post, relying on news reports and other sources, tracked in a database more than a dozen characteristics about each shooting, including whether the officer was under attack. The effort documented more than twice as many fatal shootings by police last year than had been reported on average annually in FBI statistics. The project is continuing and has identified more than 260 fatal shootings by police so far this year.
In the first three months of 2016, 12 percent of blacks killed were unarmed, compared with 6 percent of whites, according to The Post database.
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The complete article from the Washington Post

And no, violence does not solve anything. If anything, tensions are going to increase because of this. It is a sign that the issue has to be addressed though.
 
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Keep in mind that the civil rights movement started because of violence, which is what paved the way for MLK to come in and ask for peace.

It was the violence first which made blacks feel confident enough to stand up for themselves. The Black Panthers formed because of violent opposition to civil rights. There was a time not too long ago where blacks were killed simply for asking to be treated like human beings and nobody felt they could do anything, because if they spoke up they might be found dead and mutilated in a ditch somewhere. Even testifying against a white person could get them killed.

So yes, blacks did arm themselves and become violent because they had to in order to get the movement happening without simply being snuffed out.

This time is different and I don't think we need this violence now, but it can't be compared to MLK's time because times are different.
 
I'm not from America, and I don't understand really why this is happening. I do think a lot of people are anxious and hurting now, and I can understand that. After the mass shooting in Orlando recently I thought the reaction of the gay (and non gay) community in a non-violent outpouring of love and empathy was incredible. I hope whatever has happened that we can see that kind of reaction now, that people decide to reach out to each other, that there's an end to violence. That any protest are non-violent and that communities focus on how to improve relationships, and work together whatever their differences.

A woman MP in the UK was violently attacked and killed recently before the EU vote. The whole country was shocked, and politicians who would usually make a point out of avoiding each other, consoled each other. I hope we see something similar happen here, and not just with politicians. I've heard a lot of times phrases like "we want to make USA / Britain great again" or "We want to take our country back".

It never went away - it's right next door waiting for us. We just have to have the courage to go knock on that door and talk to each other. Then it really can be great again.
 
sprinkles said:
Keep in mind that the civil rights movement started because of violence, which is what paved the way for MLK to come in and ask for peace.

It was the violence first which made blacks feel confident enough to stand up for themselves. The Black Panthers formed because of violent opposition to civil rights. There was a time not too long ago where blacks were killed simply for asking to be treated like human beings and nobody felt they could do anything, because if they spoke up they might be found dead and mutilated in a ditch somewhere. Even testifying against a white person could get them killed.

So yes, blacks did arm themselves and become violent because they had to in order to get the movement happening without simply being snuffed out.

This time is different and I don't think we need this violence now, but it can't be compared to MLK's time because times are different.
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Agree. Well said.

Let's also keep in mind that the Panthers fed poor school children and built community. They weren't just about "violence".
Their agenda, according to the 10 Point plan is reasonable, they just existed at a time when being militant was what (they felt) was called for.

MLK was killed by a (white) sniper, too.

The problems that are happening in this country right now are not new. Collectively we are more informed, due to technology, and coming together in different groups. The violent acts are changing in form (from random murders, lynchings, etc) to mass shootings, but the problems are not new, nor is violence.


I'm not advocating violence. Of course I want peace, but I also want equality for all humans. To me equality is not political. Taxes, military spending, health care, and immigration are all political issues, but human rights are not, and human rights issues are a key part of the problem right now. It is completely wrong to gun down police, but hatred and fear of the police is rising because of the inequality the black community has suffered (historically and currently) and the technology that circulates unjust deaths at the hands of the police. Historically, when people are oppressed violence eventually happens.
 
Asa said:
Agree. Well said.

Let's also keep in mind that the Panthers fed poor school children and built community. They weren't just about "violence".
Their agenda, according to the 10 Point plan is reasonable, they just existed at a time when being militant was what (they felt) was called for.

MLK was killed by a (white) sniper, too.

The problems that are happening in this country right now are not new. Collectively we are more informed, due to technology, and coming together in different groups. The violent acts are changing in form (from random murders, lynchings, etc) to mass shootings, but the problems are not new, nor is violence.


I'm not advocating violence. Of course I want peace, but I also want equality for all humans. To me equality is not political. Taxes, military spending, health care, and immigration are all political issues, but human rights are not, and human rights issues are a key part of the problem right now. It is completely wrong to gun down police, but hatred and fear of the police is rising because of the inequality the black community has suffered (historically and currently) and the technology that circulates unjust deaths at the hands of the police. Historically, when people are oppressed violence eventually happens.
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Yes. Also lynching is not that old, so sentiments that have been passed down through generations are some times still fresh where they are relevant. Emmett Till was lynched just in 1955 which is only 61 years ago. This could still happen back then and there are people still alive who can remember it.

Emmett Till was a special case because blacks finally testified in court against the lynching. The guys who did it got away with it (and later admitted to doing it) but still this was seen as a beginning to the civil rights movement, and it was helped by Dr. T. R. M. Howard, a wealthy black surgeon and civil rights leader who owned guns, hired guards, and protected people who testified for Emmett Till. Dr. Howard is said to have slept with a Thompson submachine gun, and threatened that there would be another civil war if killing blacks continued.

This incident is considered a major turning point in the civil rights movement.
 
Young black males and police officers are in a deadly game that is influenced and controlled by the history and culture of the US. Implicit beliefs about races and guns override reason. The situation is stronger than each individual. People don't see each other as individuals but as stereotypes, and the right to bear arms causes fear and overreaction. So sad for everyone.

Here is some information that helps to understand why the problem is not easily solved:

https://scienceblog.com/7830/blacks-whites-have-same-fear-reaction-when-seeing-a-black-face/

http://www.citylab.com/work/2016/02/study-psychological-science-black-faces-bias-tamir-rice/460488/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/11/science-of-racism-prejudice
 
bolognamacaroni said:
Philando Castile
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This one hits close to home because I was stopped in St. Paul for a nonfunctional taillight.

Inasmuch as I am posting this, I was not shot and killed. I wasn’t even ticketed.

To be fair, if and when I am pulled over, I make sure the police officer can see both my hands, and I ask permission and announce intention if I need to do anything with them.

No one needed to die, but Philando Castile did. WTF? Because he was reaching for his license? Why was that interpreted otherwise? Why do we have such poor risk-assessment?

And must the response always be extreme and punitive?

Was he killed in part because he was black and this is the United States of America? I’m disgusted at that thought. I know it happens, but I don’t ever want to adjust to that and be comfortable with the idea of it.

When I was 32 I had just gotten clean and sober and was beginning to figure myself and my life out for the first time.

What was Philando doing?

I’m crying at the front desk again.


We Are Lost,
Ian
 
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