Religion is anti-truth: yes or no | INFJ Forum

Religion is anti-truth: yes or no

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Animekitty, Sep 21, 2010.

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  1. yes

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  2. no

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  3. other

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  1. Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    Religion to me as I define it is about seeking truth by appealing to authority. Without a leader their can be no religion. When someone tells you that Jesus is the only path to salvation and you question what that is then you are questioning the authority of that persons leader (Jesus) and therefore it is a personal attack on that believer. The leader is always right, the leader is always infallibly. I cannot trust someone that has such arrogance for when confronted they will not provide any reasonable debate but instead claim infallibility granted to them by the leadership of their choosing. So then whom do I trust? In this life I see many proclaiming that they have the truth. But how do I know that they are right if others say the opposite is truth? No one is infallible, we all make mistakes and yet some act as if they know what truth is when actually don't. But then who am I to say they are wrong? Who am I to say I know better then they do? The answer is that I cant. I can only go with what I know will affect me and my life. To put myself under a false authority would not be good, I do not wish to be manipulated. If a religious person tells what to do with my life should I be obedient to their wishes. Not if what I think they are saying is hogwash. I see that people being manipulated all the time and so why not be suspect of anyone acting as an authority. I will not cripple myself by rejecting everything they say but I will have to take it with a grain of salt. The world is a giant puzzle of which the big picture is of great importance. A single piece of that puzzle does not deserve to be elevated above all others as the single truth. But thats what I see religion doing. Using authority to justify one piece as ultimate truth and the entire big picture when that piece might not even exist.
     
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    #1 Animekitty, Sep 21, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  2. Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    So go talk to real Christians, what are you waiting for? You're talking to people like my mom, who believes all of the Bible, and hates everything else.

    I'm a Christian, I believe Jesus died for my sins, and is the Saviour of the world, and when I leave this world I will join him in Heaven. However, the huge difference my mom and I, is I didn't come to this because anyone told me too. I took in all the worlds info, filtered it and came to the conclusion the world could not be the way it is without God.
     
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  3. Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    There's a bible verse, with which I do not know the name. But here's what it says:

    "Blessed is he who doesn't see but still believes"

    This verse causes people like my mom to admantaly defend the fact you can NEVER question God.

    However, there are several occasions, where God welcomes being questioned. As long as it's sincere.

    To your argument OP about the appeal to false authority fallacy, (keyword false) doesn't really apply, as Jesus is not a false authority of Christianity. However, it can be placed under the fallacy Argument from Ignorance, the latter meaning if we can't prove it exists we can't say it doesn't. And from my point of view (in all honesty, feel free to prove me wrong, I'm merely posting my opinion) it seems that you are taking the exact opposite, which is just as fallacious. Because we cannot prove him with science (which in itself is debatable), he CANNOT exist.
     
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  4. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    So your mom is not a "Real Christian" and you are?

    What exactly do you think sin is?
    Where does it reside inside of you?
    Could Jesus have gotten rid of your "sin" without dying in the same way doctors can remove tumors without dying for their patient?
    Where is heaven? Is it in a different galaxy or perhaps a different dimension? How does your soul leave your body to get there?

    These are but a few question I had to ask myself when I thought I was Christian and I still cant figure them out otherwise I would still believe in Christianity. I cant be a "Real Christian" until I know what "Real Christianity" is and for that I need answers.
     
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  5. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    What perplexes me is that some will act as if they are Gods authority on earth because of how they interpret the bible. I was not born 2000 years ago I cannot know for sure if Jesus was God or an advanced alien. I cannot be an authority on Jesus and I don't see why others act as if they are. I don't deny that its possible that Jesus is God but what does it mean to be a God.
     
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  6. Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    \But isn't the very definition of faith trusting without knowing? *Which is different than blindly believing*

    What exactly do you think sin is?

    That's a very good question, and a very good question. But the problem is, is no matter what answer I give, it won't matter. Because I believe sin is a direct defiance against spiritual authority, and the rules they lay down.

    Where does it reside inside of you?

    Physically? No where. But does the location matter? Sin resides in your soul, or in the Atheists view, consciousness. (I see them as the same.)

    Could Jesus have gotten rid of your "sin" without dying in the same way doctors can remove tumors without dying for their patient?

    The issue with this is again, it's nothing physical. Sin is a spiritual term,
    the rules of the Old Testament was that in order to clean sin, it must be essentially moved to a pure object. To talk to God, you must sacrifice a pure lamb. Jesus was the pure lamb, thus the metaphor the Lamb of God. Not only was he the son of God, as well as the son of Man (Son of Man meaning he was still a part of humanity). but that he had never sinned. When he died, all the sins of the world were taken into him, and he fell into hell and died. Well, the human part of him died. And (NOTE! This is my pure beliefs, and to be honest, many Christians don't believe what I do about Christianity, just take that in mind) and while the son of Man died, the son of God lived, and the sins stayed in hell, while Jesus ascended into Heaven. Could he had done it a different way? He was the son of God, of course he could have just thrown them away. But it had to have been according to the rules set forth by God his Father. But why does it matter, once again?


    Where is heaven? Is it in a different galaxy or perhaps a different dimension? How does your soul leave your body to get there?

    No one knows. Does it matter?

    Again, I mean no disrespect, but if these caused you to lose your faith, then I don't know if you ever had any. And I don't say that to speak over your life, but those aren't in a sense key parts of the religion (and as well as they are.) What is Sin, is a very key part of Christianity, no doubt about it. But where it lies, where heaven lies, and if Jesus could have done it a different while again are good introspective questions, are they that important?

    I also explained the difference between my mom and I, she believes blindly, I tested Christianity and it's validity held true.

    And go read the Bible. I say that not sarcastically, but sincerely. That is real Christianity, you may need a religious figure to help you understand some connotations, but there's no better place to go.

    "What perplexes me is that some will act as if they are Gods authority on earth because of how they interpret the bible. I was not born 2000 years ago I cannot know for sure if Jesus was God or an advanced alien. I cannot be an authority on Jesus and I don't see why others act as if they are. I don't deny that its possible that Jesus is God but what does it mean to be a God."


    In philosophy class we have been going over the pursuit of truth, now my teacher being an Athiest said that we can never know truth until effectively we die. Because that is when our path to truth ends. But I disagree, all the questions you ask can be answered by simply leading a Christian walk. While the atheistic path of truth may seem more graspable, and plausible; Christianity is just its own path of truth, but its more of understanding God. What does it mean for Jesus to be both son of God, and son of Man? How can God come from nothing? What if God actually doesn't exist? What if the God we know is actually Satan, and what if the Satan we know is actually God? These are all questions I ask myself, and the Bible answers them. In the first book of John, he says and the Word was God. Meaning the Bible is God, now I don't mean that we should worship the Bible. But if the Bible says something about God, thats the truth.
     
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    #6 Saru Inc, Sep 21, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2010
  7. NaeturVindur

    NaeturVindur Cuddlemaster
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    [I was writing a longer response, but then IRL pissed me off, so I no longer felt I could write a post that would come across as friendly so I will simply say this]

    Please don;t confuse christianity for all religions. Say what you will about christianity and your interpretations of it, and how its unverifiable, or whatever (so long as its not attacking christians). However, what's being said only applies to Christianity, and in part Islam, and kind of to Judaism. Otherwise, it falls apart.
     
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  8. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    So you trust that God will send you to heaven without knowing if he exists?

    But only if you defy the good spirits then it becomes sin, right?

    If sin is just defiance of the good spirits then sin is the structure of your soul that make it possible to defy them. It is not a spiritual liquid but a soul shape.

    Being that you already implied that sin is a soul shape and not a spiritual liquid I don't see how that is possible.
    It matters because Jesus suffered a horrible death when there might have been no need for it to happen.

    I defiantly had faith that I was going to hell. Looking at Christianity from an agnostics perspective gave me a chance to shed my fears and actually look at it with new eyes.

    I have read some of the bible. But I don't think it will help me any if my soul shape is wrong. I believe I am a good person and if God thinks that is defiance then I suppose I am going to hell no matter how genuinely I help and care for others. Thats the Christianity I was raised with by my religious figures.
     
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  9. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    [quote=N
     
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  10. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    Your questions perplex me?
     
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  11. Soulful

    Soulful life is good

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    I am curious what your source(s) is?
     
  12. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    Is it the questions themselves or are you trying to find the motive behind why I ask them?
     
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  13. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    No the motive makes sense, but the questions I find perplexing.

     
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  14. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

     
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  15. OP
    Animekitty

    Animekitty Regular Poster

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    Do you think they are questions worth asking?
    Are they constructive enough for you to think of there implications?
     
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  16. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

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    What exactly do you think sin is?

    This is a completely valid question, Sin is in it's simplest terms is acting in opposition to God.



    Where does it reside inside of you?

    Could Jesus have gotten rid of your "sin" without dying in the same way doctors can remove tumors without dying for their patient?

    Where is heaven? Is it in a different galaxy or perhaps a different dimension? How does your soul leave your body to get there?

    what is the point of the last three questions?
     
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  17. OP
    Animekitty

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    How do we know what God wants us to do? If God wants people to live in a certain way then it would be pertinent to know who is the real God. Most of the people I know act in such a way as for me to think that I they believe in the wrong God. God would not send a person to hell if they were a good person so anyone who says otherwise believes in the wrong God.

    No point just curious as to how people would respond. I once asked my aunt if McDonalds would be in heaven. I like McDonalds so it would disappoint me if it was not there. She thought it was an irreverent question having nothing to do with Christianity. Apparently she along with most people don't think creativity and reasoning is an important part of being human.

    Barnabas do you think heaven would be different for an INFJ than for an ENFJ? Will heaven be different for other MBTI personality types? Or will individuality be stomped out because its not what God wants heaven to be like?
     
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  18. DefectiveCreative

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    Sorry of I'm wrong about this, but it seems like your current concept of Heaven is that of a physical recreation of Earth, but with all the "bad" bits taken out.

    But what if Heaven isn't anything like that? What if it's a realm of pure thought, or pure feeling? What if heaven and hell are just metaphors for certain states of mind?

    Point being, not everyone's concept of Heaven is that of a physical recreation of Earth, but with all the "bad" bits taken out. In which case, many of your questions may seem to them irrelevant. This wouldn't denote a lack of creativity or reasoning on their part, but simply that they have a different understanding of the term "Heaven".
     
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  19. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
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    Given that God established our nature, as its creator, it seems consistent that God should command nothing which is inconsistent with our nature. Indeed, St Thomas Aquinas notes that the moral precepts contained in the Ten Commandments can be known through the philosophical sciences alone. Incidentally, the moral teachings of the Catholic Church are very consistent with those of the ancient Western philosophers.

    Aquinas then asks, why should God command, what can be known by study? His answer is that God commands us to live in a way consistent with our nature so that we may attain the fullfilment of our nature and reach happiness. But since very few have the time, leisure, ability, or disposition to pursue thourough philosophical studies, and even then, there is much scope for error - it is fitting that God should command/reveal the natural law as commandments, so that all (the simple, the busy, etc.) should attain beatitude safely.
     
  20. Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    Took the words out of my mouth.
     
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