[PUG] [split] Islam as a Religion | INFJ Forum

[PUG] [split] Islam as a Religion

poshlost

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Commendable piousness. I hope this act will remind people that Islam is indeed a religion of peace as can be seen here. Hopefully we can put behind the September 11 attacks. Every religion has its extremists who have hurt others in one way or another.

Islam is not a religion of peace, that's bullshit. Islam is pretty much a religion of war. But Muslims like most christians do not take it that seriously, most don't even read the Quran, they're just people who want to live, following their instincts and societal constructs as best they can, and prefer the safety and calmness of peace over the unrest and tumultuousness of war anytime.

As for the vid, it's pretty funny. If I stumble on such a sight while wandering out and about in the city, it'd brighten up my day.
 
Islam is not a religion of peace, that's bullshit. Islam is pretty much a religion of war. But Muslims like most christians do not take it that seriously, most don't even read the Quran, they're just people who want to live, following their instincts and societal constructs as best they can, and prefer the safety and calmness of peace over the unrest and tumultuousness of war anytime.

As for the vid, it's pretty funny. If I stumble on such a sight while wandering out and about in the city, it'd brighten up my day.

I don't mean to debunk your stance on things or anything... But the Islam is quite different according to this lady. I mean... what she did was not merely read the book, what she did was almost crazy 0.o And she's on TED! :p
 
Islam is not a religion of peace, that's bullshit. Islam is pretty much a religion of war. But Muslims like most christians do not take it that seriously, most don't even read the Quran, they're just people who want to live, following their instincts and societal constructs as best they can, and prefer the safety and calmness of peace over the unrest and tumultuousness of war anytime.

Not true. Islam is a religion of peace, however a lot of people tend to take it too seriously.

The Qur'an does not promote violence of any sort (unless you're referring to the ayat regarding "infidels" which, in context, translates to the people who violently resisted the influence of Islam and sought to eradicate Muhammad and his followers.)
 
Not true. Islam is a religion of peace, however a lot of people tend to take it too seriously.

The Qur'an does not promote violence of any sort (unless you're referring to the ayat regarding "infidels" which, in context, translates to the people who violently resisted the influence of Islam and sought to eradicate Muhammad and his followers.)

Yeah thats the part that means non muslims lol... Muhammad spread Islam by the sword, why wouldn't people violently resist? Islam has always been a religion of peace (for muslims) that spread itself violently.
 
I don't mean to debunk your stance on things or anything... But the Islam is quite different according to this lady. I mean... what she did was not merely read the book, what she did was almost crazy 0.o And she's on TED! :p

My connection is too slow, can't watch atm.

Not true. Islam is a religion of peace, however a lot of people tend to take it too seriously.

The Qur'an does not promote violence of any sort (unless you're referring to the ayat regarding "infidels" which, in context, translates to the people who violently resisted the influence of Islam and sought to eradicate Muhammad and his followers.)

Unless I'm referring to many more Ayat. Mohammed himself was a fighter, a conquerer, spread Islam by the sword and that's the way to spread Islam according to the Quran. Not preaching or convincing but by the sword.

In historical context that does not make Islam an evil religion. It's just a very instinctively human religion.

Christianity of the other hand is a religion of peace. Yet Christians have caused more damage, more slaughtering and pillaging than any other religious group in history. So judging a people by the dogma they supposedly embrace is foolish. But lets not delude ourselves about the true nature of Islam.
 
Let me rephrase what I said earlier: Islam is not a religion of peace much as any other religion, however, it is neither inherently violent.

Yeah thats the part that means non muslims lol... Muhammad spread Islam by the sword, why wouldn't people violently resist? Islam has always been a religion of peace (for muslims) that spread itself violently.
Perhaps I've been reading a different version of history than you?

The actual instruction towards treating non-Muslims is something along the lines of "if someone has different beliefs than you, leave them be, for Allah is the judge." I'll get back to you in a bit, when I look up the actual quote.

(...) that's the way to spread Islam according to the Quran. Not preaching or convincing but by the sword.
Source?

I've never come across an Ayat that informs people to spread Islam through forceful coercion.
 
In historical context that does not make Islam an evil religion. It's just a very instinctively human religion.
I agree with this very much.

However, I don't think there are any instructions in Qur'an that promote violence without reason. I'm refuting this because spending 19 years in a Muslim country, I have come across a million different viewpoints regarding Islam and this does not coincide with any.

Islam is hardly the ironclad doctrine against civility that many people assume it to be; it is in fact, very flexible and often projects itself through the individual. It is whatever the reader wants because it is cryptic enough to be and there are many different, often conflicting interpretations of Quranic ayaat (especially if they are taken out of historic context. (This is also why there are more sects within Islam than any other religion.)) I've known many different Muslims; from the incredibly sensible educator who believes in peace and love and promotes that through Islam, to the people shouting "west is evil! America, new world order, illuminati!" who promote that the Western world is the root of all evil. While the former is usually a lot more well-versed in Islamic studies, they're still two projections of a religion founded* on the basis of an incredibly cryptic, poetic book.

What I'm getting at with this lengthy diatribe is: I've never read or heard an account of Islam being spread by sword, and I absolutely do not believe the Qur'an cannot be interpreted to mean a thousand different things, in which at least one interpretation promotes violence. HOWEVER, this does not make it a violent religion in itself. It just makes the individual asserting his beliefs on others, violent.

*Another thing that a lot of people assume is that Muslims are followers of Muhammad. Muslims are followers of Qur'an, and while Muhammad was supposedly the perfect projection of what a Muslim should be like, most people realize the historic accounts are far too unreliable to set store by and don't give it as much importance as the Qur'an itself.
 
There are many verses that can be interepreted in different ways, but the historical context shows you islam has always been on the offensive, regarless of the excuses and justifications. So before I quote some Islamic verses, I'll just post a fable, because I like fables.

The Cat and the Cock

A CAT caught a Cock, and pondered how he might find a reasonable excuse for eating him. He accused him of being a nuisance to men by crowing in the nighttime and not permitting them to sleep. The Cock defended himself by saying that he did this for the benefit of men, that they might rise in time for their labors. The Cat replied, "Although you abound in specious apologies, I shall not remain supperless"; and he made a meal of him.

Now Mohammed started off with good excuses to attack the infidels, but when he was out of any, he was quite straightforward and unapologetic. A couple examples:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." (that is the true meaning of aslem taslam)

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you." (yup, Islam is not a religion of peace. Shocker)
 
Now Mohammed started off with good excuses to attack the infidels, but when he was out of any, he was quite straightforward and unapologetic. A couple examples:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." (that is the true meaning of aslem taslam)

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.

Quran (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you." (yup, Islam is not a religion of peace. Shocker)

I hope you do realize you have taken each of these ayaat out of context.
 
I agree with this very much.

However, I don't think there are any instructions in Qur'an that promote violence without reason. I'm refuting this because spending 19 years in a Muslim country, I have come across a million different viewpoints regarding Islam and this does not coincide with any.

Islam is hardly the ironclad doctrine against civility that many people assume it to be; it is in fact, very flexible and often projects itself through the individual. It is whatever the reader wants because it is cryptic enough to be and there are many different, often conflicting interpretations of Quranic ayaat (especially if they are taken out of historic context. (This is also why there are more sects within Islam than any other religion.)) I've known many different Muslims; from the incredibly sensible educator who believes in peace and love and promotes that through Islam, to the people shouting "west is evil! America, new world order, illuminati!" who promote that the Western world is the root of all evil. While the former is usually a lot more well-versed in Islamic studies, they're still two projections of a religion founded* on the basis of an incredibly cryptic, poetic book.

What I'm getting at with this lengthy diatribe is: I've never read or heard an account of Islam being spread by sword, and I absolutely do not believe the Qur'an cannot be interpreted to mean a thousand different things, in which at least one interpretation promotes violence. HOWEVER, this does not make it a violent religion in itself. It just makes the individual asserting his beliefs on others, violent.

*Another thing that a lot of people assume is that Muslims are followers of Muhammad. Muslims are followers of Qur'an, and while Muhammad was supposedly the perfect projection of what a Muslim should be like, most people realize the historic accounts are far too unreliable to set store by and don't give it as much importance as the Qur'an itself.

Well, I've been living in a country with a Muslim majority and a large Christian minority my whole life, and I'm usually the one defending Muslims when in the presence of Radical Christians.
And though I'm fervently opposed to judging Muslims, I see no reason to claim that Islam -the doctrine- is anything other than what it actually is. Of course one might not interpret it as violent religion per se, but claiming that Islam is a religion of peace is simply absurd. Christianity is a religion of peace, Buddhism is a religion of peace, Islam is a religion of a certain form of justice.
 
I hope you do realize you have taken each of these ayaat out of context.

You can't quote without taking out of context to a certain extent.

Edit: I request this one be split.
 
[mods]split at request

I appologize if I missed a post or cut this wrong. It was a little tricky for me to sort out what should be moved.[/mods]
 
Muhammad spread Islam by the sword, why wouldn't people violently resist? Islam has always been a religion of peace (for muslims) that spread itself violently.
I agreed with Billy here. both Islam and Christianity became violent and expansive due to politics.

About the religion itself, while I also spend my 19 years in a majorly Islamic country like [MENTION=3538]Arsal[/MENTION]; (on an unrelated note; where are you from?) I'm not as well-versed in Quran. But I'll say from what I know that Islam is a religion which basis can be more drastic than Christianity; depending on each person, you can call it a religion of peace and a religion of war... something I noticed from reading religious debates. :|

Then again, I guess that's what justification is.

Also, I would say Buddhism is a religion of peace. But Christian, I would mainly call it to be a religion of love. At least ideally...
But the followers themselves, I can assure you they are quite varied themselves, like Arsal had said. :)
 
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This topic is useless to fight about. There will always be those who will say it is a religion of peace and those who will say it is a religion of war. Everything depends on how the person views it and what they want to see/what they refuse to see.
 
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This topic is useless to fight about. There will always be those who will say it is a religion of peace and those who will say it is a religion of war. Everything depends on how the person views it and what they want to see/what they refuse to see.

+1
 
This topic is useless to fight about. There will always be those who will say it is a religion of peace and those who will say it is a religion of war. Everything depends on how the person views it and what they want to see/what they refuse to see.

+1
 
Do some research on the doctrine of abrogation.
 
Haven't read everything in this post and am not too familiar with the details of Islam, but I will say that the most geniune and nice people I have met in my life were deeply religious, practicing muslims.
 
This topic is useless to fight about. There will always be those who will say it is a religion of peace and those who will say it is a religion of war. Everything depends on how the person views it and what they want to see/what they refuse to see.

That could be said about everything, your comment is tautological, a vacant remark.
 
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