Perception Functions vs Evolution vs Fish

[BMatt]

While this is an idea that is mostly centered on Ni vs Ne, I figured I'd toss in some S functions as well.



Anyway, on the topic of fish

Se: It's a fish . . . why the hell are we talking about a fish?

Si: It was a fish yesterday, it was a fish last week, it was a fish last year. . . . why the hell wouldn't it be a fish next week or next year?

Ne: It's a fish now, but it has genetic traits that could change in subsequent generations. It could grow legs, or it could grow wings, or it could grow a jet engine, or it could grow an electric lightbulb on it's head, or it could grow fingernails out of it's forehead.
Judging function: I suppose the water is going away, so the legs are the best option. . . though perhaps the wings or jet engine might work as well.

Ni: It's a fish, but the water is going away so it better grow some legs fast.
Judging function: Hmm, how could a fish grow legs?



I suppose the differentiation in my opinion would be that Ni sees what something needs to be, where Ne sees all the possibilities of what something could become.

Ni is limited to a functional answer to a problem. . . . but not necessarily the best answer. Judging fuctions then figure out the best way to enact the functional answer that Ni saw.

Ne sees all the possible things that could happen, but then has to figure out which of those possibilities are functional . . . . and then which one is the best choice.




Any criticism?

 

[Tin Man]

First off, I don't believe each cognitive function can be taken on it's own. I think you need to see them as a group before they make any sense. For example while an ISTP's Se might say: "It's a fish...why the hell are we talking about a fish", their Ti and Ni would cause them to become curious as to the reason we're talking about this fish.

Secondly as you know if you've ever come across an INTJ, the way we perceive Ni can be wildly different. I've often found some discussions here on Ni topics to be irritating as they seems to be just random thoughts with no reason to them. This is due to my Te, as it tries to break it down and understand Ni and then use it in a logical fashion.

I not too familiar with Si or Ne but I think they same criteria would apply to them.

 

[BMatt]

First off, I don't believe each cognitive function can be taken on it's own. I think you need to see them as a group before they make any sense. For example while an ISTP's Se might say: "It's a fish...why the hell are we talking about a fish", their Ti and Ni would cause them to become curious as to the reason we're talking about this fish.

Secondly as you know if you've ever come across an INTJ, the way we perceive Ni can be wildly different. I've often found some discussions here on Ni topics to be irritating as they seems to be just random thoughts with no reason to them. This is due to my Te, as it tries to break it down and understand Ni and then use it in a logical fashion.

I not too familiar with Si or Ne but I think they same criteria would apply to them.

I'll give you a vast amount of credit for calling me out on the one piece of the puzzle that I felt as though I should include. . . but I was worried that it might be too subjective to my own experience to be worth including for this one post. My intention was to refine it before posting, however since you've questioned it, I'll spew out the basic thoughts early:


The general idea started from Mr Paladin-X's post about studying and learning, which has led me to spending a fair amount of time thinking about the ways in which I learn new things.

I'm of the belief that the dominant function that people utilize is what defines their personality. The continuation of that thought would be that INFJs and INTJs share the same outlook on the world . . . however they filter it in two different ways.

From my statement that Ni dominant people simply see the world as "the truth that needs to happen . . . how can I accomplish this truth". This is something I believe is isolated to Ni, however the differences between INTJ and INFJ are the filters of what truth is.

For instance, as an INFJ, the truth that I will see is directly related to what is best for the people around me. . . . hence my view of what NEEDS to happen is tinted by the people I work with. My solution will exclude gravity as a factor, since Jimbob doesn't believe that gravity exists . . . I'll figure out a way around it so that we can continue on the project without creating problems. I can bend my view of logic and reality (Ti) to fit whatever is necessary in the situation to appease people.


For an INTJ, the truth that needs to happen is directly related to the logic of the world. It doesn't matter if Jimbob believes that gravity doesn't exist. . . He'll find out the hard way when a truck falls on him. The INTJ will care about Jimbob, but when he doubts that such an obvious thing such as gravity exists, he will be responsible for his own demise. At that point he'll be dead so that he is no longer important to the project, and his blatant disregard for the obviousness of reality will leave the INTJ to have less sympathy for him. (please understand this is a harsh / extreme example)



So the difference between INFJ and INTJ would be that in the presence of people, INFJ will bend their vision to fit whatever stupidity that the surrounding people might demand, where an INTJ would tell them that they're all stupid.

I believe that the clear difference between INTJ vs INFJ is their disposition to assimilate facts that have been given to them. INTJs that I've known seem to navigate the world of scientific publications or text books with ease as they develop new ideas from them. My INFJ disposition is that I'll research what other people have done but I don't accept it as fact because my logic is more subjective. The only way I'll actually believe something I've read is if I've seen it in person.

The idea being that INTJs fuel their Ni from their Te, where I as an INFJ want to fuel my Ni from my Fe, but I find it doesn't always exist and I'm forced to go hunting within my Se for fuel for my visions.



B

 

[Tin Man]

I'll give you a vast amount of credit for calling me out on the one piece of the puzzle that I felt as though I should include. . . but I was worried that it might be too subjective to my own experience to be worth including for this one post. My intention was to refine it before posting, however since you've questioned it, I'll spew out the basic thoughts early:


The general idea started from Mr Paladin-X's post about studying and learning, which has led me to spending a fair amount of time thinking about the ways in which I learn new things.

I'm of the belief that the dominant function that people utilize is what defines their personality. The continuation of that thought would be that INFJs and INTJs share the same outlook on the world . . . however they filter it in two different ways.

From my statement that Ni dominant people simply see the world as "the truth that needs to happen . . . how can I accomplish this truth". This is something I believe is isolated to Ni, however the differences between INTJ and INFJ are the filters of what truth is.

For instance, as an INFJ, the truth that I will see is directly related to what is best for the people around me. . . . hence my view of what NEEDS to happen is tinted by the people I work with. My solution will exclude gravity as a factor, since Jimbob doesn't believe that gravity exists . . . I'll figure out a way around it so that we can continue on the project without creating problems. I can bend my view of logic and reality (Ti) to fit whatever is necessary in the situation to appease people.


For an INTJ, the truth that needs to happen is directly related to the logic of the world. It doesn't matter if Jimbob believes that gravity doesn't exist. . . He'll find out the hard way when a truck falls on him. The INTJ will care about Jimbob, but when he doubts that such an obvious thing such as gravity exists, he will be responsible for his own demise. At that point he'll be dead so that he is no longer important to the project, and his blatant disregard for the obviousness of reality will leave the INTJ to have less sympathy for him. (please understand this is a harsh / extreme example)



So the difference between INFJ and INTJ would be that in the presence of people, INFJ will bend their vision to fit whatever stupidity that the surrounding people might demand, where an INTJ would tell them that they're all stupid.

I believe that the clear difference between INTJ vs INFJ is their disposition to assimilate facts that have been given to them. INTJs that I've known seem to navigate the world of scientific publications or text books with ease as they develop new ideas from them. My INFJ disposition is that I'll research what other people have done but I don't accept it as fact because my logic is more subjective. The only way I'll actually believe something I've read is if I've seen it in person.

The idea being that INTJs fuel their Ni from their Te, where I as an INFJ want to fuel my Ni from my Fe, but I find it doesn't always exist and I'm forced to go hunting within my Se for fuel for my visions.



B

Well personality theory isn't exactly a hard science, so I would think there's room for subjective analysis.

Interesting stuff, I would agree with most of what you've said. Also, while that was an extreme example, it was still quite accurate.

 

[Paladin-X]

Here is my take on distilling the perceptive functions:


Extraversion builds.
Introversion extracts.


Sensation is based on raw data; is concrete.
Intuition is based on patterns; is abstract.


Se is a descriptive function. It builds from raw data. It sees what is, based on sense data. It is literal and concrete.
Si is an interpretive function. It extracts from raw data. It sees what is, based on past experience. It is familiar and concrete.
Ne is a suggestive function. It builds patterns. It sees what could be connected. Intuitive possibility. It is novel and abstract.
Ni is an inferential function. It extracts patterns. It sees what is connected. Intuitive vision. It is symbolic and abstract.


I'll do my best to give an example of what I think these functions mean:

There's a bus, running its route. It is empty, except for the driver and a male passenger. Se gets on the bus and notices the man, wearing old stained clothes, with unwashed scraggly hair and beard, and a foul stench of body odor and stale alcohol. Si gets on the bus and notices the bum (subconsciously, people he's experienced, who look and smell like that, are bums). Ne gets on the bus and sees that he could just be a bum; or a creepy murderous person; or a poor man down on his luck, having lost all his money at the track; etc etc. Ni gets on the bus and sees how the failed economy has brought this poor destitute soul to the state he's in from the local factories that have closed down after shifting manufacturing overseas, etc.

Or something like that.

I am trying to distill them so that I can see, in a more simplified form, then see how a given judging function impacts a perceiving one and vice versa. For example Se + Ti behaviour is definitely different than Ti + Se. Once this perspective is defined, you can then apply it to any given scenario and see the likelihood of how each type my act or think.

 

[Paladin-X]

First off, I don't believe each cognitive function can be taken on it's own. I think you need to see them as a group before they make any sense. For example while an ISTP's Se might say: "It's a fish...why the hell are we talking about a fish", their Ti and Ni would cause them to become curious as to the reason we're talking about this fish.

I'm pretty sure they would just fashion a rod or spear and try to catch the fish. Then Se will say "mmm fish"

 

[BMatt]

There's a bus, running its route. It is empty, except for the driver and a male passenger. Se gets on the bus and notices the man, wearing old stained clothes, with unwashed scraggly hair and beard, and a foul stench of body odor and stale alcohol. Si gets on the bus and notices the bum (subconsciously, people he's experienced, who look and smell like that, are bums). Ne gets on the bus and sees that he could just be a bum; or a creepy murderous person; or a poor man down on his luck, having lost all his money at the track; etc etc. Ni gets on the bus and sees [strike] how the failed economy has brought this poor destitute soul to the state he's in from the local factories that have closed down after shifting manufacturing overseas, etc.[/strike] a hipster

Fixed this for you.

B

 

[Tin Man]

I'm pretty sure they would just fashion a rod or spear and try to catch the fish. Then Se will say "mmm fish"

I know a lot of ISTPs and they're a curious bunch. They may not be preoccupied with mankind's destiny but they still ask a lot of "why" and "how" questions, most likely because they're Ti doms. Of course if they're hungry and see a fish they probably will just try to catch it.