Nice guy vs Bad Boy | INFJ Forum

Nice guy vs Bad Boy

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by jimtaylor, Feb 28, 2012.

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  1. jimtaylor

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    My vent from earlier today got me thinking about the whole nice guy and bad boy personas. i am starting to think that they are not so different. Now to start out I want to define the two since it is a rather broad definition. First the nice guy:

    This is what you could call the fake nice guy. There are real nice guys out there who are sincere in their actions. They are good guys who care about the well being others and perhaps are a bit naive. Then you have the wimp who has no confidence and blames everybody but himself for his problems. This is the guy who is constantly complaining about how girls go for the bad boys and wonders why the girls don't want to have sex with him. Essentially his intentions are just as dirty and selfish as the bad boys but because of his lack of confidence he treats women like they are above him. They are the type of guy who hangs out with the girl they like who is dating another guy and hopes that when she leaves the other guy, she will go for him. He is a scavenger and his kindness is not real.

    Bad boy:

    This is the typical school bully. He will break rules just because he can. He will demoralize and insult others to maintain his belief that he is suprior. He views women as an object that is somehow below him. woman to him are ssexual objects and have no value to him beyond what pleasure they bring him. They are something he can dominate and women are his trophies. He will steal a girl from another guy and then dump her because was only interested because he could not have her.

    By looking at the definitions we can aleady see that there are many similar things about the two which again leads me to believe that they are one in the same but simply act differently. Both view women as objects of their desire and not as equals. one puts women above them, the other below. This difference is just skin deep as it seems at the core that both are motivated by the same thing.

    Both have faults in self confidence and self worth. The nice guy will act nice to get praised and the attention he desires while the bad boy will break rules and abuse the rights of others. It is still all done to gain attention and hide the fact that they are both weak at the core. The bad boy's arrogance and disregard for others and rules is often mistaken for confidence but it is used to hide the same weakness that is within the nice guy. This weakness partially revolves around the fact that neither believe they are at fault for anything. The bad boy thinks the outwardly weak are below them.The nice guy thinks he is not being given a fair shot but also just wants it handed to him. Both are envious of what others have and see not what they have.

    This is part of the reason why have started to think that they are one in the same.
     
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  2. the

    the Si master race.
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    Are there other options here or are we just dealing with polarities ?
     
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  3. Kmal

    Kmal Well-known member

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    [MENTION=731]uberrogo[/MENTION] nvm, you did it your way
     
  4. the

    the Si master race.
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    Whats that mean?
     
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  5. OP
    jimtaylor

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    As long as it relates to the subject you are more than welcome to bring in any other options.
     
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  6. blueflame

    blueflame Regular Poster

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    I like your theory and I have to say I agree. They are essentially doing the same thing (manipulation), just choosing two different paths to get there. Nice. I like it.
     
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  7. yepunsarang

    yepunsarang Community Member

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    Like Uberrogo's stating you seem to be saying that inherently all men's motives are self-centered...going off to the theory that human beings are inherently selfish. I've always believed, just a personal thing though, that there are those who are genuinely "nice." There are no motives behind except the desire to connect and love simply because it cannot be helped. Of course this is rare and especially in a society where most are out for themselves, even those who are "inherently nice" may be thought to believe maybe it's a pre-requisite to be selfish in order to survive.

    Although it's fascinating to see that you've connected two polarities in this way (which is usually the case for most polarities in life i've realized) there is definitely a spectrum.
     
  8. Frenchguy

    Frenchguy Regular Poster

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    The world is not black and white it is grey. To simplify the "nice guy'/'bad boy' genres is a flawed premise and a bit naive. The only motives we can truly know are those that are ours alone.
     
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  9. OP
    jimtaylor

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    [MENTION=5136]Frenchguy[/MENTION]

    Well of course the world is different shades of grey. I am just looking at two personalities within the spectrum. I didn’t have the time or want to go into every type of person. People do tend to fall into the middle and most will gravitate towards some balance of normality but there are extremes. It would be unrealistic to refute these extremes just because the vast majority of people fall in that normal range. I am also not stating that every individual is this way and I don’t think everybody is. It is just observing patterns within the actions of others and similarities between two groups of people. It is not a statement that this is the only motivational factor and it is not going into individual specifics.

    A person who has low self esteem like the above mentioned groups of people may have that low self esteem caused by a thousand different reasons. We can only know our own motives but it is also possible to predict the motives of others by simply noticing similarities and patterns. It is not 100% but if it is accurate 51% of the time then at the very least it helps solve things and make it easier to figure out. For somebody on an MBTI site what I just stated is the essence of MBTI. People are classified as INFJs by looking at patterns and similarities to form general traits and characteristics that allow one to potentially see flaws and issues, strengths and weakness, but this does not mean it will be true for every individual. Each INFJ is a unique person onto themselves but they will demonstrate similarities and patterns. It is not wrong or na
     
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  10. Frenchguy

    Frenchguy Regular Poster

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    @jimtalor no harm no foul. Going through a real sh*t storm today. Sorry if I offended you.
     
  11. yepunsarang

    yepunsarang Community Member

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    You seem to be very skeptical of even "nice" people's desires to help others and make them happy. I do see how you're deriving this though, from a sense that "giving" and "being nice" can make someone happy. This in some sense stems from your own personal needs and pleasures. At the same time however, I guess it's just the way I am, I find myself finding genuine happiness with another person when I recognize who they really are. It's that recognition and reveling in the rarity of their inner beauty that I give genuine respect to them. The love and kindness I bestow someone (whether it be friend or lover) is because there is something I respect inside of them. I feel as though they deserve the kindness from me...and is not soley based on the returns that action gives me.

    I can totally see how your examples can occur in real life, in some ways I'm afraid I've met a few like that. Just want to bring it out that there are people who are completely otherwise too.

    PS: I actually prefer nice guys who show me affection because of what they see in me. I believe that nice guys can be guys who are self-confident too. Of course there are the types that you describe too, who seem a bit more dangerous o_O
     
  12. OP
    jimtaylor

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    [MENTION=5136]Frenchguy[/MENTION]

    Haha it's no problem. Not offended, just anal about details and making sure I am understood completely.

    [MENTION=495]yepunsarang[/MENTION]

    Like I said its not wrong to gain joy from meeting others and being nice to others. Even people who are jerks and I dislike I will be kind too because I don't like being any other way, it's not me. I will not enjoy their company but that doesn't mean I won't be kind. I don't think that those who help others and feel good about it don't feel genuine happiness from it. Like in your example, if you come to understand that someone at their core is not such a great person are you still going to feel great happiness from learning that? Are you still going to have the desire to be kind towards them despite this fact and do you feel they deserve it?

    Now imagine that you did not gain genuine happiness in others would you still have that respect to be kind to them? You might not be gaining anything in the result of being kind but being kind is as a result of the happiness you feel within which you decide to express for those of which you care for. It's connected as you explain and there is nothing wrong in that. You give the kindness with no expectations to gain anything in return but you have gained.

    For me I am kind to people like this because I don't know their story and perhaps they just need somebody to see the better side of them. I have never been kind to somebody in the hopes of gaining something as explained in one of my other threads. It causes endless frustration for some. I do take the extra step to treat those I love like they are someone special to me. I am just kind because I don't see any reason not until a person proves otherwise.

    Self confidence is a part of respect for ones self and others.
     
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  13. yepunsarang

    yepunsarang Community Member

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    You bring up interesting points---I think think that probably the most stellar definition of love is loving a person regardless of their flaws. I'm usually good at picking out both the bad and good in people before "I take the plunge" so to speak. I'm very calculating before getting into relationships with others so most often I don't idealize them in the beginning (advantage of a demi-sexual! yay!). So for me prior to having a deep respect for a person I may see all the facets of their being and accept it all and still wholly admire them.

    I have a great example, one of my closest friends. I had a rough time with her earlier in college because she was going through a very troubling phase of being lost. She had grown up in a family that did not totally recognize her potential and nurture her as a girl who was unconventional. As a result she came to college without a strong sense of self. I saw through that and embraced her, even through times I felt as if she was bringing me down emotionally, where I felt like perhaps an initial reaction would be to push away, I held her close because I could see so much potential in her. I didn't expect happiness from her necessarily...I just found a nugget of beauty in her that I knew meant more to me than her flaws. I realize that prior to the happiness I receive from my friends, what allows for that happiness to blossom and come to being is the fact that I find something about them that is powerful and absolutely wonderful. It's not that I am attracted to that necessarily that I want to associate with that beauty within them but that I just wish to nurture and always help protect that part of them.

    So I do believe that in the end...people can have good intentions for others that may not necessarily always lead back to you, or always originate from a personal desire for happiness.
     
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  14. Apone

    Apone Permanent Fixture

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    So wait-- if nice guys are whiny losers who can't get laid and bad boys are self-centred bullies and philanderers, then where do babies come from?
     
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  15. ridet-contritum-anima

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    I think the personal claim to fame is what confuses people. In other words. Most men who claim they are "nice guys" are just passive assholes or spineless (they think they're nice because they let people walk all over them but in reality they're not doing anyone a favor); on the other hand those who claim to be "bad boys" tend to be immature and self-centered (they are jaded for one reason or another but usually due to their own ignorance not because they're very good at being bad).

    Now the true "nice guy" won't have to tell you he's nice because actions speak louder than words. The true "bad boy" will never loudly proclaim his opposition to societal rules because he is not really bad he just has his own moral compass.

    So which nice guy vs bad boy are we really discussing?
     
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  16. OP
    jimtaylor

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    [MENTION=495]yepunsarang[/MENTION]

    I understand what you are saying and it would be nice if could actually meet someone like that. Let's just leave it at that you are a much better person than I and have more faith in others than I do. :D
     
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  17. Trifoilum

    Trifoilum find wisdom, build hope.

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    I agreed in this. It adds a certain depth over the usual dichotomy we're dealing with.

    To add, people who -really- want to be nice or bad (and even 'nice' and 'bad' has its own dichotomy and/or scale), will be nice or bad just because they -are-. Or -can-.

    It's not for pussy, for approval, for admiration, for dick or any hole imaginable, for love, for romance, for 'changing'....for anything. Of course, disagreement and/or rejection has their own factor in this.

    Selfishness and selfserving intentions also has their own factor, but...
     
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  18. Relm

    Relm Community Member

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    My husband and I are currently re-reading a book called The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida (amazon link). One of the first few reviewers states: "The book helps men to find and reclaim their power in relationships in a compassionate and honoring way." Which puts the gist and purpose of the book forward quite well. It describes a middle road, and deeper way of sorts that incorporates the best of the "nice guy" and "bad boy" stereotypes while challenging the reader to find that more authentic power within themselves. Perhaps give it a try?
     
  19. knight in battle

    knight in battle Well-known member

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    [MENTION=2710]jimtaylor[/MENTION]

    As a contrast, could you perhaps paint the picture of someone who isn't weak? The two you have stated are easy to understand. The difficult one for me to understand is the one who is legitimately strong.
     
  20. This

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    So "bad boys" are sociopaths?

    I believe people can have true empathy, Quite honestly I'll take myself for example, I am generally nice to people because it hurts me to hurt other people and that is why I don't typically engage in that behavior, although if someone dishes it out I will return it, not sure why I find that acceptable though. I think it has something to do with wanting to protect the kind and innocent. /shrug.
     
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