My answer to the Trolley problem...opinions? | INFJ Forum

My answer to the Trolley problem...opinions?

dogman6126

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May 9, 2014
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I finally have a comfortable answer to the trolley problem, and I wanted people’s opinion. Only been working on it for about a year! For those that don’t know, the basic trolley problem goes as follows. In the first case, a runaway trolley is going down a track where 5 people are tied down. There is a side track where one person is tied down. You are standing by a lever that can turn the trolley from the main track to the side track. There are no other people around, you know with certainty that the trolley will not stop before killing someone. Therefore, you have three choices. Flip the switch to let the trolley kill the one person and not the five, leave the switch alone and let trolley kill the five people and not the one, or turn around and do nothing which results in the trolley killing the five people and not the one. In the second case, there is again an out of control trolley traveling down a track where 5 people are tied down. You are standing next to the track with another person. You know with certainty that this person is large enough that if you pushed him in front of the trolley that it would stop the trolley. You know with certainty that the trolley will not stop otherwise. The common idea is that for you there are only three options. Push the person on the track (the trolley will kill the man and not the five), do not push the person on the track (the trolley will kill the five people and not the one man), or turn around and walk away (presumably the trolley will kill the five people and not the one man).

According to the study Hauser et al, 2007, 85% of people surveyed think it is right to flip the switch in case one. However, for case two only 12% of people think it is right to push the man on the tracks. The question is why. As a philosopher, there are generally two models in ethics. Utilitarianism or deontology. A utilitarian view would say that whatever action results in the greatest good for all involved is the morally correct action. Therefore, because it would be greater good (most likely given available information) to let one person die to save five others, a true utilitarian would both switch the lever and push the man in the way. The deontological view is that there are certain fundamental truths that must be respected for a person to act morally. One example of a fundamental truth is a person’s right to live. Because by flipping the lever you would be condemning a man to die that would not otherwise have died, you are breaking that fundamental truth and therefore are acting immorally.

My view on this is a combination of the both. The final goal should be to maximize the good for all involved, but I also think there are certain fundamentals that should be respected first. These fundamentals are themselves necessary for maximizing the good for all involved. I argue that these fundamentals are what help define us as humans that naturally have a sense of good and bad. And to then break one of these fundamentals is to give up something that makes us human. I can probably explain this part better another time, but this idea of fundamentals that should be respected first and then with a pursuit of the greatest good answers the trolley problem that aggress with the intuition of most people. I would answer that for case one, it would be morally permissible (given available information and assumptions) to flip the lever because not only does the one person have a fundamental right to live, but so do the five people on the other track. Because we should be working towards the greatest good for all involved it would be better to flip the switch. However, for case two there’s an important difference. Instead of all six people being tied to the track, one is now free and standing next to you. I argue that in this situation, the large person is now a new variable to consider because of that freedom. Because of their agency, you should take into account their choice and freedom of choice. In the first case they are tied down. I argue that they don’t have the same kind of agency (thing) that they do when they are not tied down further along the track.

In the first case, it is asking about the moral action of stopping the trolley (or not) to save the people tied to the track. In the second case, the moral action falls to the large person. He has the power to act directly to save the five people. Assume the man does not want to kill himself to save the five. Now we can ask what you should do. If you were to then push the man, you are murdering him to save five people. In the first case, you are killing the one man to save five. I suggest that the type of killing and the type of murder here are very different. In the first case you are either killing one person or killing five people. In the second case you are either murdering one person or killing five people. The ideal moral result of the second case is that the person chooses to sacrifice himself to save the five people. The worst moral case would be him choosing to sacrifice himself and you stopping him from saving the five people (given known information being all information) because not only are the five people being lost when one could have been lost, but also you are breaking a person’s right to themselves and the choices that they make. Now let’s consider the case that the person chooses not to jump. This raises the question of is it morally permissible to force him to jump or to let him make his choice. Notice that my reasoning for why one should not break a person’s agency was because to do so would be to give up a fundamental part(s) of what makes us human. Therefore, in so far as the second case, it would not be morally ok to push the man off of the bridge against his will. To do so would be to take away a fundamental of his humanity, and yours.

Furthermore, is it ever permissible to force this man to jump (more people will be killed, important people will be killed, etc.). I think there are cases where this would be ok. What if acting forces us (the actors) to give up what makes us human, but not acting where to destroy humanity? For example, assume that some number of people are tied to the track that it would damage society irrevocably. Perhaps the total society in the situation is twelve people and the five that are tied down are all male or female. Therefore you would destroy society to not act. Perhaps that is where it is morally ok to break those fundamentals? When the survival of morality and society and humanity depends on the survival of agents involved, then it is morally right to protect that survival.
 
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I don't know why you need to simulate it when the draft does the same thing in forcing people to give up their lives for others.
 
I don't know why you need to simulate it when the draft does the same thing in forcing people to give up their lives for others.

The draft system is a part of the laws that govern the country you live in, by choosing to continue residence and citizenship in that country you choose to adhere to it's laws.
 
Huh this is the first I have heard of this problem. Quickly, in all cases then I save the maximum amount of lives I can without killing anyone directly. Meaning I do not shove a human life onto the tracks to save others. I would inquire of the individual if they were willing to give their life for the others and let them decide. As for flipping the switch, I do nothing. Choices like this in real life are hardly ever this simple. How did all these people get on the tracks in the first place? Perhaps it was a suicide pack with the 5 and the 1 was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ill make choices when I need to and I am sure those choices will be different at the time I actually have to make them.
 
The draft system is a part of the laws that govern the country you live in, by choosing to continue residence and citizenship in that country you choose to adhere to it's laws.

One of the laws is that I can change it so that only women get drafted. Does the fact that it is a law make it right?

Regardless, this is outside the point I was making which was that people make these decisions and don't even realize they do.
 
Huh this is the first I have heard of this problem. Quickly, in all cases then I save the maximum amount of lives I can without killing anyone directly. Meaning I do not shove a human life onto the tracks to save others. I would inquire of the individual if they were willing to give their life for the others and let them decide. As for flipping the switch, I do nothing. Choices like this in real life are hardly ever this simple. How did all these people get on the tracks in the first place? Perhaps it was a suicide pack with the 5 and the 1 was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ill make choices when I need to and I am sure those choices will be different at the time I actually have to make them.
I believe the set up is that you can't consult with the potential victims and that they are all strangers.

I have heard this before and have thought about my initial reaction. I would not kill anyone to save any others, not 1 to five not 1 to 100 but after a thousand......
 
Huh this is the first I have heard of this problem. Quickly, in all cases then I save the maximum amount of lives I can without killing anyone directly. Meaning I do not shove a human life onto the tracks to save others. I would inquire of the individual if they were willing to give their life for the others and let them decide. As for flipping the switch, I do nothing. Choices like this in real life are hardly ever this simple. How did all these people get on the tracks in the first place? Perhaps it was a suicide pack with the 5 and the 1 was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Ill make choices when I need to and I am sure those choices will be different at the time I actually have to make them.

the idea is that with the people tied down, all other things equal. To make the problem more explanatory, perhaps some diabolical man tied these people to the tracks, and you walk by and see the situation.
 
I believe the set up is that you can't consult with the potential victims and that they are all strangers.

I have heard this before and have thought about my initial reaction. I would not kill anyone to save any others, not 1 to five not 1 to 100 but after a thousand......

In this situation as an agent, you are making a choice that has consequences. in either case, you are in a situation that brings about some number of peoples death. Your motivations can be what you want them to be. A common motivation is to save those that don't die, but it's not the only possible motivation. Perhaps the switch is a big red button, and you just really really like pressing big red buttons.....;)
 
In this situation as an agent, you are making a choice that has consequences. in either case, you are in a situation that brings about some number of peoples death. Your motivations can be what you want them to be. A common motivation is to save those that don't die, but it's not the only possible motivation. Perhaps the switch is a big red button, and you just really really like pressing big red buttons.....;)
I did not bring about death. Whether I was there or not, people would die. Here I am simply a random element thrown in to effect the outcome.
The idea that I can only effect the outcome in certain ways and that I know this immediately makes this a situation that will never happen in real life. I do not like questions like this.
The good of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
 
The problem is that I don't know how many people this guys death might affect. I am always willing to sacrifice my innocence for the greater good. Only in this can one be truly unselfish.
 
I did not bring about death. Whether I was there or not, people would die. Here I am simply a random element thrown in to effect the outcome.
The idea that I can only effect the outcome in certain ways and that I know this immediately makes this a situation that will never happen in real life. I do not like questions like this.
something very similar certainly could happen in real life. It may be highly unlikely, but it is certainly possible.
But forget that argument. You like science. That means you accept there is an objective truth to things. Questions like these are meant to probe the objective truth of morality in situations. Physics does something similar. We assume spherical chickens but we will never actually encounter a spherical chicken....
It's still a perfectly reasonable question to ask.
The good of the many out weigh the needs of the few.
This may be an easy answer, but is this a correct answer? And you said GOOD of the many vs the NEEDS of the few. Good and need are not synonyms.
 
The problem is that I don't know how many people this guys death might affect. I am always willing to sacrifice my innocence for the greater good. Only in this can one be truly unselfish.

is a persons worth only so far as the number of people their death will affect?
 
No, it is his worth 'plus' the people he affects and since I judge each person of equal value that would be an easy addition problem.

hmmm....would you say people are of equal value, or that they are of incomparable value? Both accept that people have some value. Then I have to ask what you count as being a person. If you allow a human who is brain dead to count as a person, then comparing a brain dead person to a non brain dead person, I would say that the non brain dead person has more value. And this is only one example.
 
[MENTION=9860]Grayman[/MENTION]

and to go a step further, I could say that most everyone on earth are affected to some extent by the death of any person. Be it something so simple as the unique disruption of air molecules...
Then I ask the question are certain kinds of effects on people more valuable than other kinds of effects? I would agree to that. But then why are some more valuable?
 
hmmm....would you say people are of equal value, or that they are of incomparable value? Both accept that people have some value. Then I have to ask what you count as being a person. If you allow a human who is brain dead to count as a person, then comparing a brain dead person to a non brain dead person, I would say that the non brain dead person has more value. And this is only one example.

It would depend on if the guy who isn't brain dead is a dad or a terrorist. A dad can bring up and establish the lives of his childred so maybe (+5 kids and himself + his wife) for a total of 7 while the terrorist would be (-29 lives net value) and the brain dead is a (+/- 0) or no gain or loss but still has the value of a person so a total of 1 which is still higher than the terrorist who is -29 +1 for a total of -28.
 
[MENTION=9860]Grayman[/MENTION]

and to go a step further, I could say that most everyone on earth are affected to some extent by the death of any person. Be it something so simple as the unique disruption of air molecules...
Then I ask the question are certain kinds of effects on people more valuable than other kinds of effects? I would agree to that. But then why are some more valuable?

At this point one has to use intuition to get a best guess at the greatest happiness and health of everyone. Overall happiness is likely to enable better growth of civilization and birth rate. We have to accept human error for what it is. But happiness and health of an individual is secondary to actual life of an individual. Also, the continuation of the social and civilized system is more fundamental to the overall progress of humanity than anyone's life. Children represent that continuation of society and are therefor more valuable.
 
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According to the study Hauser et al, 2007, 85% of people surveyed think it is right to flip the switch in case one. However, for case two only 12% of people think it is right to push the man on the tracks. The question is why.

The first case has an unacknowledged actor that has forcibly subdued the people and bears any and all moral consequences. Coercion generally cedes fault to the coercer and not the coerced despite the coerced still having freedom of choice, i.e. a person with a gun to their head can still choose not to cooperate, yet we (generally) do not find fault with the person being coerced.

The ideal moral result of the second case is that the person chooses to sacrifice himself to save the five people. The worst moral case would be him choosing to sacrifice himself and you stopping him from saving the five people (given known information being all information) because not only are the five people being lost when one could have been lost, but also you are breaking a person’s right to themselves and the choices that they make.

I find it amusing that despite acknowledging an actor's ability to self-sacrifice, it is not acknowledged as a choice that you yourself could choose to self-sacrifice rather than pushing someone else or allowing the five to die. Hypotheticals are a waste of time if they are too absurd.
 
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Yes good point.
The question about pushing another larger person in front of the train is incomplete. There is another option. You push the person AND jump on the track yourself. Both of you are horribly disfigured and messed up for the rest of your life, but you both survive.
I choose option z in all cases. I jump in front of the train freeing myself from having to make any choice or knowing the outcome. Perhaps an alien being sees this predicament (an angel for religious folks) and chooses to stop the whole proceeding. That there can only be a few outcomes here is why I will not spend much time thinking about this. There are always other factors that are not known until an actual situation comes around.
 
I would travel back in time, or get somebody else to, in order to save the 5 and leave the dude alone. So, I reject the premise that you have to choose between them.

As to why killing the other guy is wrong, the other premise that you can KNOW it will work is faulty, and thus you become not only a murderer but also a murderer who failed to accomplish what was sought.

My two cents anyway.
 
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