Men Without Women ?

[James]

Men Without Women

It was of course the title of a collection of short Hemingway stories. I would say that as a younger man I really did love Hemingway's writing, his prose was just pitch perfect to me. I did think though especially as I got older, his subject matter was sometimes overly brutal and harsh. His personal obsession with bull fighting was a disconcerting mystery to me.

I guess what I was simply asking is - are men (some men) better off without women ? Generally my observation of men is that seem far happier when they are with someone, and usually behave better too. I know studies of crowd dynamics (football grounds etc) seem to show men are far less prone to violence and aggressive behavior when they are in the company of women. The communication seems very subtle, I read an article recently that said even the sight of a woman crying triggered a reduction in testosterone in men, damping their aggression.

What do people think ? I think I read that men who live alone tend to die younger, whereas women actually live longer if single. I guess it just depends on who you are with. At this point I'm not sure even my cat will tolerate me much longer. If I run out of cat food this could be my last post... Down Kitty ! Aaaargg !!!

 

[endersgone]

As Kanye so eloquently puts it--
I don't need your *****, bitch I'm on my own ****

In all seriousness though I think it depends on the person. I'm a very private person and I need my space to just: decompress, think, and "be". It also depends on the relationship of course, if it's a great one sure it can be happy and fulfilling, that said I don't think a miserable man is going to have a better life by just having a woman around. My own opinion is yes, you don't need an s/o in your life, especially if you can't find a suitable person---

Relationships can teach us a lot about ourselves and our shortcomings, I think it's preferable but not necessary to live a fulfilling/happy life.

^That's what you call a tangent without properly reading the OP

There's a lot of subjective details, what does "better off" refer to (life span, psychological health, physical health) ?

They may be less prone to violence in general, but if you're following a very simple line of thought--- doesn't that put more women in danger of being beaten-- I would imagine having a woman in close proximity would significantly increase those odds (regardless of test. levels). Is male on male violence better or different? Would society be better off as a whole with less overt violence? -- socially there's many issues that could be brought forth from differing perspectives. If we're talking about simple health (mental and physical), most relationships (for men)--regardless of the gender they're with, would allow said man the capability to lead a more happy/healthy life.

I don't know where I intended on going with this, but it certainly didn't coalesce into something helpful or informative, lol
---I'll stop rambling now.

*Edited for maximum edits*

 

[j654dgj7]

this discussion is as old as our species.
a sophists would tell you that women hold you back.
an aristotelian would tell you that women are given purpose when with they are with men.
a pythagorean would tell you that women and men are equal, but incapable of being the same.

i tend to believe that everyones different with different needs and traits. some men need women, some women need men, others may not.

 

[Gaze]

I think it depends on what each person is looking for. Society has had many high expectations for men. They are expected to be the main breadwinners, providers, protectors, leaders, etc. However, the modern world has allowed each person regardless of gender to pursue their own wants and needs without submitting to another person's wills or whims, especially if they perceive they will abuse it. This freedom makes it easier for men, for example, to live lives as they would prefer without following traditional or stereotypical roles assigned in the past. It also allows anyone to pursue our own self interest or opportunities that would not be considered appropriate if you are with a partner. You can pursue your own self-interest whether or not they are acceptable to others. This would be the benefit off not having to engage in relationships as a necessity since you would only be responsible to and for yourself.

 

[James]

Thank you all for your replies so far, some very interesting points. I think I should have chosen a better title (face palm), I didn't mean it to just be about men. I am genuinely just as interested in what women think, and I guess the reverse angle here is whether women are better off with out men ?

So what do women on the forum think ? Would both men and women be better of as 'friends', to live apart and maybe just share responsibility for children (if they choose to have children). I know culturally in the west we have a sort of 'set model' of how things should be. To be honest, that's how I've sort of seen things all my life, but now my circumstances are changing. I suppose this has made me think whether it's right to question that cultural model?

Come on women, enlighten us with your intuition? Look at how terrible (some) men are. Aren't you better off without us ?

I once read a very far fetched (I hope) science article that said men's existence may be at risk. Once medical processes for fertilization were established it's potentially possible for humanity to continue with far, far, fewer men, or even none. It speculated that nature is ruthless in getting rid of anything it doesn't need. I'm sure that must be wrong, gulp...

 

[Free]

Come on women, enlighten us with your intuition? Look at how terrible (some) men are. Aren't you better off without us ?

Short answer... no.

Long answer:
What I think Hemingway was scratching the surface of and also the studies that prove men have lower aggression in the presence of women, is that it's entirely based upon attraction. Would a gay man or woman, for instance, have the same outcome with members of the same or opposite genders? How would that change the dynamic? Would a straight man's aggression be curbed while in the presence of a woman he thought was unattractive? Would a gay woman live longer if surrounded by men?
But I digress.

My true answer is this, we ultimately need each other. We are social and emotional creatures and even the most introverted of us still needs the presence of another human being every now and again for a healthy mindset. Whether that be found in person or online, we have a need to connect with one another; it's how we're built.

Even though modern science has found ways to make reproduction without males a possibility, the fact remains that our species comes in different genders, different sexual orientations, and will always. I shudder to think of a single gender human race, or a single orientation, or even a singular idea of what is attractive. We are men, we are women, we come in every diverse shape and form. We are human.

 

[Gaze]

I see nothing wrong with making this thread about men, since there have been threads about women's concerns and issues. Nothing to feel guilty about.

Since the focus today is often on other areas of life, not relationships, such as money, career, dreams, etc. I think many are unsure of how to fit a partner into their lives anymore since most people are fairly independent and have learned to meet certain needs without being in a committed relationship. Needs or wants previous generations would depend on their partner for, can be had or provided outside of a relationship.

Since today's generations can have what you want without having to compromise other desires, has the double effect of making us unsure what it is we can expect of a modern partner. I struggle with this, and answers are few.

In the end, I believe each person may be better in some aspects without the other if rules or policies are created within the relationship that make us feel devalued, limited, disconnected, restricted, judged, or demeaned rather than able to learn and grow from each other, and enrich each other's lives and experiences.

Edit: To add, the world would not be as amazing or fascinating a place without men. Men and women are great complements to each other.

 

[Sandie33]

Thank you all for your replies so far, some very interesting points. I think I should have chosen a better title (face palm), I didn't mean it to just be about men. I am genuinely just as interested in what women think, and I guess the reverse angle here is whether women are better off with out men ?

So what do women on the forum think ? Would both men and women be better of as 'friends', to live apart and maybe just share responsibility for children (if they choose to have children). I know culturally in the west we have a sort of 'set model' of how things should be. To be honest, that's how I've sort of seen things all my life, but now my circumstances are changing. I suppose this has made me think whether it's right to question that cultural model?

Come on women, enlighten us with your intuition? Look at how terrible (some) men are. Aren't you better off without us ?

I once read a very far fetched (I hope) science article that said men's existence may be at risk. Once medical processes for fertilization were established it's potentially possible for humanity to continue with far, far, fewer men, or even none. It speculated that nature is ruthless in getting rid of anything it doesn't need. I'm sure that must be wrong, gulp...

☺No, we women wouldn't be better off without men. I believe we all need men around. Men are very good problem solvers, not to mention they offer big hugs when needed. As a grounded, level headed woman I still find the need to pick a males mind for ideas. I think men are able to look at the facts of a thing from an unbiased perspective...aka ability to separate facts from emotions. Not saying mind you that males are emotionless, lol. As for reproductive purposes ...meh so you can make a baby in a petri dish, it's not near as much fun as the old fashioned hit or miss way of doing things...

 

[brightmoon]

Yes Hemingway was great as a writer and a man, I think. The bullfighting thing is hard to explain, its almost a primal thing, for him a sort of a metaphor man challenging himself against a primitive and brutal force, in an arena. An ancient contest which cannot be understood logically, Sounds like crap the way I explain it.

Men without women. Some would say men are not challenged with women they are comforted and that comfort maybe be like a slow poison, a lingering death. and we men are only fully alive when we are challenged. This might just be crap, relics of thinking from a bygone era. Maybe a little like D.H. Lawrence, one of my favourite writers, definitely out of fashion in this day and age...

Women complete us, we fit together like pieces of a puzzle in some divine union. Again a force that cannot be resisted humanity stripped down to its base essence, one the giving force and one receiving the force, passive and active, yin and yang, ebb and flow, well you get the idea.

This isn't my usual post and there isn't much linear logic in this one.

 

[Scientia]

People need people. We all need each other to some degree. Some people, regardless of gender, prefer to live alone but that doesn't mean they should be completely alone.

For the record, Hemingway was a macho alcoholic with bizarre, multi-toed cats. Don't listen to a word he says.

 

[the]

Hemingway was a hack. Woman are the motivators of mankind.

 

[James]

Some very interesting posts on here now, thank you all. One of them @Scientia made me roar with laughter... This woke my cat who has since been all over my laptop and keyboard. The fur has definitely been flying.

Yes Hemingway was all the things you say, but he also wrote 'The old man and the sea' which is just an incredibly beautiful piece of writing, so much so, that I think I could almost forgive all the other things about him. But only almost...

I will look for clarity in any future relationships, like I have now with my cat. If I continue to feed her, and don't bother her too much, she will not kill me (yet) and will allow me to continue to stay in 'her house'. At least I know where I stand. That's probably the best you can hope for.

 

[brightmoon]

Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

Ernest Hemingway

 

[brightmoon]

I would stand and look out over the roofs of Paris and think, "Do not worry. You have always written before and you will write now. All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence you know."

From A Movable Feast