Me and an ESTP | INFJ Forum

Me and an ESTP

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by pandagirl, Jul 19, 2008.

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  1. pandagirl

    pandagirl Newbie

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    Hi everyone! I'm new here. Glad to be among other INFJs. :)

    I recently dated an ESTP. It was an interesting experience. So different, yet so alike. I never had met someone who could match my banter and humor and it was so incredibly enjoyable. The attraction between us wasn't fiery passion or lustful, but it was a genuine appreciation and liking for each other; throw in there a high amount of physical attraction to each other, and I was pleasantly surprised and willing to see where the relationship went.

    However, he ended things abruptly after only one month stating though I was perfect on paper and he was very attracted to me and though I was amazing, there was something "intangible missing" and that he was bothered that we had some personality differences (obviously!). Basically, I grow to love people. I see the good in people and would rather have sincere feelings of love that I can trust as real, than merely emotions. He wants passion and that "feeling" of being "in love." He just said: "I know me and I know what I want." He's very resolute this way. Of course, I recognize that is fair, but though we are didn't experience some passionate affair, we have an undeniable chemistry. It's one of stimulation, admiration, and comfort.

    Me and the guy are trying to be friends because of this chemistry, but I am worried that it may not work out due to him.

    Is this typical of ESTPs? Their reliance on passion and emotion to guide a romantic relationship?
     
  2. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Ask Dr Cokenut.
     
  3. Motor Jax

    Motor Jax randomness included
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    CokeNut would be the one to ask... she's the resident ESTP... she is also my g/f and signifcant other...

    if you were asking if it is possible, yes... but it also takes a good deal of understanding from you both... its all on what you want...
     
  4. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    Hey PandaGirl - I hope this provides some insight for you ... but feel free to ask away on anything that you want to know. Jax and I have been together for well over a year and it has been downright testing at times ... and exceedingly wonderful at others.

    I think the ESTP/INFJ attraction happens because we are awed by our counterpart; we feed off of the traits we see in the other that are lacking within ourselves. It’s exciting to be able to see the world through the eyes of another, especially if the other sees a world 180 degrees from your own.

    You speak of love after only one month of dating … that is scary stuff to an ESTP. At this point we are still trying to figure out different ways to get you naked! Seriously, at this point we are still having fun; we haven’t even begun to think long term, at best we may be thinking how you fit into our here and now, but that’s about it.

    INFJs claim to have heightened intuition, but sometimes you get so stuck in your world, behind your tall walls, that you forget there are real people on the other side. A week after we started dating Jax told me that I was capturing his heart - I replied by telling him that if he spoke anymore such nonsense I was going to dump him like a bad habit. A week later he told me he loved me, and I broke up with him. I WAS TERRIFIED!!!! Who was this psycho that falls in love (and worse yet, admits to it) after only two weeks? When I told Jax it was over he said he knew I would say that but he couldn’t stop himself from saying he loved me. Why? Because while he was busy dreaming of the next 30 years he forgot to listen to his intuition telling him that I was scared and I was not ready to hear it!

    I guess the bottom line is that yes, we are sensor junkies - our reliance on passion and emotion are not just a guide to our romantic relationships; they are absolutes. If our mate can not ignite our passion and feed our emotions, then the relationship is irrelevant. We may still get with you, and even admire you and wish things were different, but we will never be happy with you.

    When your ESTP refers to missing something intangible he refers to that ‘something’ that makes his body and emotions react … that spontaneous laughter, that kiss for no reason, a wink in public, a naughty whisper in his ear … he needs you to turn him on, challenge him, surprise him, invigorate him and adore him. Yes we demand adoration, nothing less will ever be enough — ESTPs are not needy, we are greedy beyond belief.

    Your ESTP has already told you that he knows what he wants; don’t doubt it for a minute, but keep in mind that ESTPs live in the here and now — what we want at any given time is based on any number of factors: life experience, passing time, change in circumstances, emotional maturity, etc. What is more important is that YOU know what you want. Are you really willing to put up with the ESTP personality? We are very touchy feely which can drive any self respecting INFJ to dream of poisons in our coffee; and we are also easily bored which means that you will have to constantly find ways to keep our interest. It’s a lot to ask, and you have to be ready to do it. Jax stepped up to the plate, but he is able to do it because when he can’t do it anymore I have the sense to give him some recharge time … will your ESTP be willing to let you catch your breath when you have exhausted yourself attempting to make him happy?
     
  5. HenRick

    HenRick Community Member

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    Wow CokeNut I just feel like I got slapped in the face. :shock:
    Your description of ESTP relationships really made sense and answered some questons
    I didn't even know I had about them!
     
  6. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    LOL! Have you ever tried dating an ESTP?

    *passes ice bag for the black eye*
    Sawwy! :(
     
  7. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    TMD!!!! :mrgreen:
     
  8. OP
    pandagirl

    pandagirl Newbie

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    Wow, this was great insight into an ESTP.

    Just some clarifications: I didn't mention "love" to him at all. The jury was still out on him for me, too. I actually almost broke it off with HIM because I just thought we were too different and I wasn't "feeling it" either. But, as I got to know him, I started to think: "Wow. I really like him because of x and y and z" and wanted to stick it out. I am at my best around him.

    I actually didn't mind that he was touchy feely. I was/am so attracted to him, that I *liked* it. When it comes down to it, I didn't "ignite" him like you said. I don't need that ignition as I am more driven my emotional needs and my admiration and affection of the person.

    The interesting thing about my particular ESTP is that he was married and divorced young. He is looking hard for the "Real One." Almost too hard, if you ask me, dating and seeking out different girls all the time. He told me at the beginning of every relationship, he can see whether it's going to last 2 months or 4 months, which is very odd to me. He says he wants a serious relationship now, but that I wasn't "it." I can't argue with that, but still, our mental and physical chemistry is undeniable. I may not ignite fiery passion in him, but there is something there that is a definite magnetic pull.

    When it comes down to it, I know we are not meant to be, but we love being around each other. He brings me up from my grounded place, and I bring him down from his energetic pace. He said to me: "Believe it or not, I have opened up to you more than most." I demanded honestly and truth from him, and he gave it to me, even though it wasn't what I always wanted to hear. But, a question for you Cokenut: do you ESTPs realize that that passion cannot be sustained and that it's not necessarily a sign of true love?

    As it is now, we are trying to be friends. We hang out and have a great time and talk for hours, but by the end of the night, it is clear we are still attracted to each other.

    I'm not holding my breath for him, but I wonder if he will ever realize what we had was good and special.
     
  9. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    I actually assumed you hadn't said 'I love you', but I since it did happen to me I wanted to give you a true story of just how much it freaks us out, lol. However, keep in mind that INFJs are intuitive, but ESTPs can read people within minutes. He was probably reading into every facial gesture, every word you say, every small change in tone when speaking, even what you wore to any given date. He was looking for signs of you falling for him. You see we don't actually hurt people on purpose, and if we see we might hurt you, we would rather do it sooner than later. Keep in mind that you may not have been falling as hard as he thought you were, this is my observation based on what I know of INFJs and my own type.

    Believe me, it would have gotten old. Jax loved it at first, and he still does in moderation, but he will say no and (inadvertantly) push me away when he's had enough or is just not in the mood for physical interaction.

    We are always looking for 'the one' we truly believe that person is out there. I was married and divorced twice by the time I was 32, and I had been in 3 serious relationships in between. The thing is that even though we hate to be alone, we really hate to be bored. We wind up going from relationship to relationship, or just palying the field until we are ready to begin our quest anew. In our sick twisted minds 'the one' will be strong, charismatic and so utterly devoted that our heart will sing at the mere sight of him ... but if you think about it INFJs have just as unrealistic a dream as ESTPs, in fact it is the exact opposite, when you find 'the one' you will just know, and he will be the most caring and loving and gentle soul and he will understand you and ... yadda yadda yadda ... think of everything you want and figure that we want the opposite.

    Why is it not sustainable? And what better sign of true love than a person who sets out to love you and spark passion in you everyday for the rest of his life?

    Do INFJs realize that there is a here and now and that to truly be in love you have to step out from the walled fortress and experience it?

    You guys will probably always be the best of friends ... but if you both want a shot at a relationship you will have to put aside everything you know about relationships - you are the fish and the bird looking for common ground ... the only way to find it is to think outside the box.

    I'll bet that he already realizes that what you had is good and special, but like I said it is just not enough. Good and special are never enough for an ESTP unless we are talking about a reliable used car.
     
  10. OP
    pandagirl

    pandagirl Newbie

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    Hey CokeNut! Thanks for replying. Your responses are so interesting, it's almost like talking to my ex! It's helping me understand the situation a lot more, so thank you!

    This is actually a deal we made on our third date. He mentioned to me that he dated his last girlfriend for too long after he already knew he was going to break up with her. I told him, "Please, if you ever feel that way about me, don't do that." At the end of the date, on his way out, he said: "OK. I normally don't do this with girls...but, I promise to tell you the truth." With that in mind, he's said so many jerky-seeming things to me, but they were always the truth and I actually admire that. The other day we were hanging out and someone in the park stopped and said to us: "You two lovebirds look so happy and in love." haha. I jokingly said to him: "See? If you hadn't hastily broken up with me, we could be having fun right now!" His reply? "You're probably right. But I'm looking for the serious thing right now and besides, if we were still dating, I'd probably start lying to you eventually." SO RUDE, yet completely honest!

    Point taken. Though I adore my ESTP, when he broke up with him, I didn't shed a tear, because I knew he couldn't fulfill MY needs of wanting that "most caring and loving and gentle soul." This was ultimately the dealbreaker for me with him, but I have to say, I do see those qualities in him (or maybe that is my INFJness trying to believe in something that is not there). He told me he's been in love five times, but only two of those were relationships, which to my INFJ ears doesn't make sense at all.

    For me, it's not sustainable because passion is an emotion, and emotions are not permanent -- they are fleeting. The "spark" can fade and you are often left with someone you actually don't even like. Surprise, surprise, I like to form my attachments and love based on solid qualities like kindness, a sense of humor, etc. I have felt that passion in my life before with other men and it's helped me realize that it's not what I'm looking for in a relationship.

    I don't think there is a chance for a relationship between us. I think what is done is done. We both realize we are looking for completely different things in a relationship, but that doesn't mean I don't care for him or that I'm not still attracted to him, or that when he are together it feel so good and the chemistry is undeniable. ah! Good and special not enough? You ESTPs are greedy! ;)

    Question for you CokeNut. When you met your guy, did you immediately feel that "intangible thing"? Or was it something that developed?

    Also, is there is chance that an ESTP will change his mind? Sometimes when I am hanging out with him, I'll catch him looking at me in a certain way that seems almost shy or vulnerable, different from the lusty looks I used to get from him. Sometimes my intuition tells me that he might really care for me, but then I push it out of my head.
     
  11. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    My pleasure! Its nice to be able to be useful :D

    He does have those qualities, just not in the quantities that you need. Just as you do have the qualities he needs, just not as much as he needs. And that is the key ... Jax and I don't compromise; we don't say I'll meet you half way, we say this is what i want, and i will take it for as long as you can give it then I'll give you a break. So when he's tired of paying attention I let him recharge, and when he knows that I've missed him or I need TLC he lets me hang all over him like a bad shirt. No compromise, only true determination to understand, appreciate and accept the others needs.

    As for falling in love ... I can truly say that I have loved with all my heart only three times, but I have been in love many, many times. I know this seems fickle, and I KNOW some of you are thinking that there is only one true love ... God NO! how dark and gloomy a thought ... only one love? Love is miraculous and wonderful and magnificent, why would God only allow us one per lifetime? No I believe you love and whatever the circumstances are that take that love away, your heart remains. Give it time to heal and USE it again!!!! Would you stop using your leg if you broke it once?

    The fact that only two of your ESTPs loves were relationships means that he was probably in love with someone he could not have. We are capable of loving from a distance.

    Emotions may be fleeting, but one replaces another. The spark fades, but another replaces it. As for being left with someone you don't like? We don't get involved with people we don't like ... we will screw them ( :p ), but we wont get involved.

    And what makes you think we don't form our attachments based on solid qualities? I could never give my heart to an unkind man, and certainly not to someone who couldn't make me laugh ... you are confusing sex and casual relationships with actual committed relationships.

    Obscenely greedy ... :oops:

    Jax had a second job in a bar, and I went to that bar on a regular basis including every wednesday to sub on their pool league. He'd had his eye on me for months when he finally got a Wednesday night off and was able to go to the bar as a patron rather than an employee. We got to talking, a fun song started playing and we danced. That song turned into a slow song, he held me and we danced some more. At some point he decided that he had better make his move or he might not have the chance again ... he kissed me and I saw STARS! Talk about Yummy! Things went from there ... for ESTPs the something is there immediately, now whether the other person can hold our attention for long is another story ...

    He really does care for you, and he is kicking himself for not being able to settle for less than what he wants, especially because he knows that what he wants is a lot and what you are offering him is good and sincere and enduring ...

    A scorpion was walking along the bank of a river, wondering how to get to the other side. Suddenly, he saw a fox. He asked the fox to take him on his back across the river.
    The fox said, "No. If I do that, you'll sting me, and I'll drown."
    The scorpion assured him, "If I do that, we'll both drown."
    The fox thought about it and finally agreed. So the scorpion climbed up on his back, and the fox began to swim. But halfway across the river, the scorpion stung him. As poison filled his veins, the fox turned to the scorpion and said, "Why did you do that? Now you'll drown, too."
    "I couldn't help it," said the scorpion. "It's my nature."
     
  12. OP
    pandagirl

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    I think I'm struggling with the fact that I am not *enough* for him. I make him laugh, I make him happy, he thinks I'm so kind and wonderful, I make him want to kiss me. I feel we could be in a committed relationship, when even though he might not be enough for me, I'd be willing to try, because I see there is something special there. I could overlook some of his shortcomings, but there is nothing I can do with fulfilling that "intangible" thing that he needs. And that hurts.

    He told me later that he knew immediately that he wanted to kiss me when he met me, and when he did, I was unexpectedly blown away. His sexual attraction to me remains strong, but still something is missing. It's so frustrating!

    Is there any way for me to win him over? I am honestly fine with being his friend, but my INFJ intuition tells me this isn't done with.
     
  13. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    I know it’s hard to accept that you are not enough ... but let me help you with that ... STOP IT!!! ;)

    Its not about not being enough, it’s about where he is and where you are at this time. He is still chasing the dream, let him do just that knowing that ESTPs live in the here and now and as I've said before, things may change.

    After I broke up with Jax he kept his distance and gave me space, but he continued to text me and whenever we bumped into each other he was kind and polite even though I had really hurt him. He never said he missed me or asked to get back together; he seemed to finally be listening to his intuition and truly sensing my fear, and he respected it — that was the smartest thing he did.

    Be his friend and be available, but keep your distance ... nothing is sexier to an ESTP than a good challenge - especially if some hot nukkie is the reward!

    Remember that I said that we need a lot and are obscenely greedy ... no one is ever going to be enough, but he can only learn this in time. The problem is that society has taught us that your significant other is supposed to be everything to you ... that is not possible for an ESTP because we are exhausting companions. The only way for us to be happy and fulfilled in a relationship is to have full lives and healthy relationships with others ... no, not swinging, lol! I mean close friends, family, charities, coworkers, etc.

    You say that you could overlook everything even though he may not be enough for you ... why would you want to do that? Why settle ... If he is not good enough for you tell him. Next time you guys are talking let him know that you really enjoy his company and will remain his friend while he goes about his quest for ‘the one’ but you will not be an emotional stepping stone or an occasional one night stand.
     
  14. Motor Jax

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    just for humor sake:

    [​IMG]
     
  15. OP
    pandagirl

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    I don't know if it's so much that I feel rejected, but my intense desire to understand him and how he thinks, because it is so foreign to me. To me I don't understand how really liking each other + chemistry doesn't equal something great, so I'm trying to comprehend his view on relationships. I have to truly understand everything to come to a resolution. How INFJ of me!

    How long were you broken up for?

    Unfortunately, after he broke up with me, my "shadow" of the ESTP came out, and I was acting recklessly, throwing myself at him, usually in a drunken state. He tried to resist, but I eventually got my way. I feel pretty ashamed/embarrassed about that. Very unlike me. I don't even know why I was doing it. Probably a way to regain "control." But, since, I have regained composure and been on good behavior, trying to prove my sincerity of a friendship to him. However, I fear that my prior inappropriate behavior may have permanently made a negative impression on him.

    Right after we broke up, he was making a HUGE effort of make me a part of his life, inviting me out with his friends often. However, he's cooled off and I worry that it's my fault. How do I regain his trust?

    You are totally right. I think it's just because my time spent with him is SO GREAT. I just don't want to lose him from my life. I will be happy just being his friend.

    Not that all ESTPs are alike, but maybe you could try to add your two cents to a situation that happened recently. Right before the 4th of July we hung out. It was a good time, we kept our boundaries, I apologized for my inappropriate behavior, but I definitely noticed he was especially "into" me that night, giving me looks and touching me during conversation. When we parted, we hugged and awkwardly looked at each other, until he said: "OK. Maybe just one kiss." And he sweetly kissed me goodnight on the lips. I was going away for the weekend and he asked me when I was leaving and I said I'd drop him a line when I got back. So, when I got back from my trip, I emailed him, and we were just talking about our weekends, work, etc. I showed him photos from my trip (which included lots of guys who were all married or gay). I didn't hear for him for a couple of days, but when he responded, out of nowhere, he told me about a girl who he was having an online dating back-and-forth with. Granted, it WAS a funny story, but it later bothered me. I already assumed he was dating other people, so it's not that that bothered me. It's that he brought up the subject, literally, out of NOWHERE. We have never talked about other men/women to each other since the break up.

    I replied back with my own funny dating anecdote, playing it cool, and after that...nothing for a week from him. I know he's not so dense as to not tell that story without expecting some reaction from me. He's too smart for that. So, I guess my question is: was he telling me that story to set boundaries, to say "we are JUST friends and I am dating" (which would bother me that he couldn't just tell me directly), or was he trying to mess with my mind?

    You ESTPs are master manipulators!
     
  16. HenRick

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    There was this one article I read online and found a link to it on this forum (forgot which topic).
    It actually was talking about the MBTI and the processes of each type. It said that even though
    INFJ and ESTP have completely diferent letter some of their process (like Fi Ni or whatever I don't really
    understand these) are still in order. The true opposite would be ISTJ since all of their processes
    are inverted from INFJS.
     
  17. CokeNut

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    Hey Panda ... you realize that you will never truly understand him, don't you? :?

    Jax and I were broken up for exactly one week. What can I say? he played it totally cool and I soooo missed his kisses!
    I called him one afternoon and invited him to the movies, he accepted, and we went from there. The thing is that I called him because he gave me the impression that if for some reason I couldn't fully commit to the relationship he would be ok if I broke up with him again.

    I think it was a grave mistake on your part to throw yourself at him ... Like you said, not all ESTPs are alike, but I assure you that you would never really regain my trust I would always see you as someone who is only my friend in the hopes of gaining my affecction. And yes we are manipulators, but isn't what you did just as manipulative?


    You should have said: 'that would have been a very nice ending to the evening at another time, but tonight it ends with just goodnight' Letting him kiss you only confirmed in his mind that you are still holding out hope of a relationship; had you withheld the kiss he would have thought of you all weekend.


    You opened the door for him to talk of other women when you sent the pictures of the guys; he either figured it was safe to talk about chicks, or he figured you were playing games and (being the competitive a-holes that we are) he wanted to one-up you. Here's what you should have replied to his story about the other woman: "Wow, what a great story! I am so glad that you are getting out there and having fun. I can't wait to hear about the next date!"

    As for why he won't tell you directly that you are just friends and he is dating others ... its may be because we really don't like to hurt the one's we love, and so we sometimes beat around the bush in hopes that you will figure it out on your own.

    You seem like a really cool girl ... here's my advice if you want any sort of hope (however slim it may be) - Be his friend, and nothing more.
     
  18. OP
    pandagirl

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    Er, yeah! It was stupid of me. Very unlike me. I think I was trying to act like I didn't care, if that makes any sense. I've apologized for those incidents, and have, for the most part, backed up my words with my actions. He knows I won't lie to him and will always tell him the truth.

    He did it so fast I didn't have time to react! The first time, I did resist saying: "No, no kissing!" But, then that probably made him more determined to get a little smooch at the end of the night. Little rascal. He's so god damn charming, it's not even fair.

    C'mon! I sent him vacation pics. I wasn't even thinking about the fact there were other guys in the photos. I did write back something akin to that, saying: "Funny story!" Then continued on to casually prattle off my own dating story. He is a competitive a-hole, which made it all the sweeter when I beat him at darts. Holla!

    Believe me, he's said enough brutally honest stuff to me, that telling me we are just friend, et al., would not be a big deal (or instance, when he broke up with me he said: "I really like you, but I now we are going to breakup, but I really want to have sex with you.")

    At this point, I'm more worried about him wanting to be friends with me, than a romantic relationship, because I've seen enough of this faults to where it's just a turn-off to me. He's considerably cooled off with his interaction with me. I'm just not going to contact him and see what happens. And yes! I am a cool girl. haha. The biggest compliment my ESTP told me was: "You're really funny. That's unusual for a girl." And it's true, he's never encountered a girl that can match his wits!
     
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