Loaded Words

[Soulful]

There are certain words in the English vernacular that have a particularly bitter history, like the N word for black persons, or the F word for queer men.
People are sometimes of split minds on whether or not it is respectful or appropriate for others (particularly those belonging to the group in power) to employ them.
Let's discuss whether this is a matter of over-done political correctedness or a matter of sensitivity/respect and recognition of the invoked trauma. Or something else?

Do you employ such words?
Do you choose your audience when you do?

 

[Sriracha]

Euphemisms: the evolution of certain words b/c of the negativity/oppression associated with it. I'm not in the position to understand such b/c I am not black or gay. From what I see, euphemisms change with generations. My black friends are okay with being called black, but their children are growing up in an era where they are being called African American. All it does it confuse non-"African Americans". I found it very awkward when I encountered having to ask my "black" friends what they wanted to be called.

I don't understand the negativity associated with being called "black", especially if I am called "white." I call blacks "black" in public and have never had a problem (and I live in an area that is about 30/40% black.)

 

[Paladin-X]

Euphemisms: the evolution of certain words b/c of the negativity/oppression associated with it. I'm not in the position to understand such b/c I am not black or gay. From what I see, euphemisms change with generations. My black friends are okay with being called black, but their children are growing up in an era where they are being called African American. All it does it confuse non-"African Americans". I found it very awkward when I encountered having to ask my "black" friends what they wanted to be called.

I don't understand the negativity associated with being called "black", especially if I am called "white." I call blacks "black" in public and have never had a problem (and I live in an area that is about 30/40% black.)

I am not picking on you in anyway, but I found that bolded line to be incredibly funny. Sorry. I'm sure your black friends would rather be called your friends? This is what was funny to me. Haha again I'm not picking apart what you are saying, I know what you mean. I don't know why it was funny. I am a bad bad man. Or rather a man with a twisted sense of humour.

In a very similar thread, that I just posted to, I made reference to a black friend I had as a child growing up. It was not until an anti-racism campaign in high school, did I ever recognize 'black' or 'african-american' as a label. He was always, my friend Teddy. Not my black friend Teddy. I paid no more mind to it than the colour of someone's hair or eyes. Though nowadays I will make that distinction for some reason. It bothers me sometimes. But usually I say it when trying to point out a visual distinction to someone. Who is Teddy? That black guy sitting over on the bench. Though I would also use it for white peope by hair colour. Who is Mary? That blonde girl sitting next to Teddy.

 

[Sriracha]

I am not picking on you in anyway, but I found that bolded line to be incredibly funny. Sorry. I'm sure your black friends would rather be called your friends? This is what was funny to me. Haha again I'm not picking apart what you are saying, I know what you mean. I don't know why it was funny. I am a bad bad man. Or rather a man with a twisted sense of humour.

In a very similar thread, that I just posted to, I made reference to a black friend I had as a child growing up. It was not until an anti-racism campaign in high school, did I ever recognize 'black' or 'african-american' as a label. He was always, my friend Teddy. Not my black friend Teddy. I paid no more mind to it than the colour of someone's hair or eyes. Though nowadays I will make that distinction for some reason. It bothers me sometimes. But usually I say it when trying to point out a visual distinction to someone. Who is Teddy? That black guy sitting over on the bench. Though I would also use it for white peope by hair colour. Who is Mary? That blonde girl sitting next to Teddy.

ha ha hoo hoo. ya. Okay. When referencing something as simple as an "attribute" of another person ... skin color, yes, comes into play. I didn't know how they preferred me to "call" them. Yes I asked. I didn't want to offend my friend. You can't just call everyone a "friend", you can't say you are "colorblind" ... doing so tells others you have no compassion for their history or their culture.

Idiot.

 

[Brodskizzle]

I'll often refer to myself using Jewish slurs, but generally in a light-hearted vein, and only with other Jews or very close friends present. I don't think you should use another group's slurs, but getting upset because someone says 'Jews' instead of 'Jewish people' or 'Blacks' instead of 'African-Americans' usually irritates me.

 

[Paladin-X]

ha ha hoo hoo. ya. Okay. When referencing something as simple as an "attribute" of another person ... skin color, yes, comes into play. I didn't know how they preferred me to "call" them. Yes I asked. I didn't want to offend my friend. You can't just call everyone a "friend", you can't say you are "colorblind" ... doing so tells others you have no compassion for their history or their culture.

Idiot.

I apologize if I've caused offense. I am not laughing at you. The thought of the question itself was funny to me. As I mentioned, I understand exactly what you meant. I have always wondered the same thing, but never thought to ask. If what I said somehow came of as a form of judgement against you, it was never intended. I will correct the error, if you could be so kind as to point it out to me. Although I suppose I could delete my post altogether.

I think it's possible that this reply may also be perceived as some kind of sarcastic response. It is not.

Sorry.

 

[Paladin-X]

ha ha hoo hoo. ya. Okay. When referencing something as simple as an "attribute" of another person ... skin color, yes, comes into play. I didn't know how they preferred me to "call" them. Yes I asked. I didn't want to offend my friend. You can't just call everyone a "friend", you can't say you are "colorblind" ... doing so tells others you have no compassion for their history or their culture.

Idiot.

Now despite, my sincere apology, I am going to dig myself a big hole on this one.

I do not understand your logic. From my childhood, all the way up to the age of 14 or so, I honestly was "colour blind". (Also, if in-so telling of my story is perceived as a judgement of how you or others should be, I would never, ever imply such things.) If I do not call my friend a black friend or african-american friend, are you suggesting that I have somehow invalidated his culture and history? And which history are you referring to? I hope not the civil rights movement. That was before his time. Which culture? He is of the Quebecois culture. Suggesting that one who chooses (or implicitly is) "colour blind", is somehow a lack of compassion or a callous sleight against an entire race of people is an incredibly ignorant statement. Then insulting me for not showing such ignorance, compounds it.

NOTE: I am suggesting that the statement itself is ignorant. This is not a personal judgement of character against you. I think you're a pretty nice person. I still think so even after being called an idiot. I accept that I say stupid things to offend people, even when they are unintentional. I am working on it.

NOTE explaining the NOTE: I append these notes because I have difficulty communicating with others. I have developmental and learning disabilities. I try to explain my intentions as such because they are almost always not taken the way I meant. I do not yet understand how to communicate with people properly. I am advised to practice more, but I am always met with such responses as yours. And I do not take offense at being called an idiot despite qualifying stereotypically as an idiot.

 

[barbad0s]

I enjoy calling all my good friends mah niggahz, regardless of whether or not they are black.

One of my best friends who is gay uses "that's gay" to refer to things he disdains, and is fine with others doing so as well. I have another gay friend who would be offended if someone used "gay" that way around him.

I think it depends on what the standard PC ways in your area are for referring to people, and if I'm not in light-hearted company that I know well and know won't mind then I'll use PC stuff. I think if youre really concerned about what you should or shouldn't say then just ask the individual -- can't go wrong with that and there's no shame to it really.

I think it's overdone and I think people need to just grow a thicker skin when it comes to this stuff honestly. I mean I can understand if someone was attacked throughout their life with hatred in those words and therefore they are offended, but if the words aren't being used in a hateful or annoying way then I mean the past was so long ago and holding grudges like that is such a waste of effort.

 

[benny]

or the F word for queer men

It's funny you should word it like that, since the word "queer" itself is one that originally had negative connotations and is still sometimes used as an insult.

From Wikipedia:

This term is controversial because it was reappropriated only two decades ago from its use as an anti-gay epithet. Furthermore, some LGBT people disapprove of using queer as a catch-all because they consider it offensive, derisive or self-deprecating given its continuous use as a form of hate speech. Other LGBT people may avoid queer because they associate it with political radicalism, or simply because they perceive it as the faddish slang of a "younger generation."

I personally have no problem with the word. I don't do it often, but I'd call myself queer.

What most people are unaware of, though, is the negative history of the word "gay."

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

It seems most likely that the ‘homosexual’ sense A. 4d was primarily a development of sense A. 4b, especially of its connotations of hedonism and lack of inhibition, while the ‘prostitution’ sense A. 4c was a separate development from sense A. 4b. In quot. 1889 at sense A. 4c gay is used by a male prostitute of people engaged in prostitution, but not specifically in the sense ‘homosexual’ (compare quot. 1890 at sense A. 4c, quoting the same source). Some examples of gay cat n. at Special uses 2a imply a relationship with an older tramp involving sexual favours (compare punk n.1 2b, gunsel n. 1), but this cannot be taken as earlier evidence that gay itself was being used in the sense ‘homosexual’. However, early discomfiture among some homosexuals about the adoption of gay to describe themselves was based on the word's associations both with prostitution (sense A. 4c) and with frivolity and promiscuousness

I really don't like it when people use the word gay in a negative sense, à la "that's so gay." There are so many other words one could use in that context. As for "faggot," well...it's very not-nice, to put it lightly. If a straight person called me a faggot, I'd be very offended. Maybe even furious. Even if a friend said it jokingly, I'd let them know it bothers me. But I'd be lying if I said I've never referred to myself or other gay guys as fags/faggots/faggy. Haven't done that in a while, though.

I think it's interesting how anti-gay religious folk will usually use the word "homosexual" rather than "gay." It's kind of clinical and dehumanizing, I guess.

And as for racial slurs, I rarely use them, and when I do it's in a totally joking manner. But I'd never use them in the presence of a person of that race.

Some people think political correctness is stupid. I don't think that showing respect and consideration for others is stupid. And this may be slightly off-topic, but what about the whole "happy holidays" debate? I celebrate Christmas, and I think that to insist on saying "merry Christmas" and blatantly disregard the fact that there are people of other religions and cultural traditions who are celebrating other holidays at that time of year is pure cuntishness. (I'll admit it, I use the word "cunt" a lot. I think it's funny. I once had a professor who said she thought it was the most horrible word in the English language.)

 

[JGirl]

i don't like when people use racial slurs against others and i will definitely say something if they do.

as far as blacks calling each other nigger but not allowing anyone else to do so, i say then shut the fuck up yourself. it's hypocrisy plain as day and a hypocrite is no better than a bigot in my book

i intentionally typed out the dirty little N word because i think it's ridiculous to tiptoe around it in a case where we are discussing it's usage.

 

[MissionHouse]

I don't ever use such terms, not even inside my mind.

 

[the]

No word is off limits. Louis C.K., cartoons, and the internet taught me that. Supposedly these minority groups are "taking these words back" I'm fine with letting them have the words and then we can all use them again. Even the word retarded offends people for some reason. I'll use that one too.


'F, C, N'

Cartoon N

 

[Sriracha]

I apologize if I've caused offense. I am not laughing at you. The thought of the question itself was funny to me. As I mentioned, I understand exactly what you meant. I have always wondered the same thing, but never thought to ask. If what I said somehow came of as a form of judgement against you, it was never intended. I will correct the error, if you could be so kind as to point it out to me. Although I suppose I could delete my post altogether.

I think it's possible that this reply may also be perceived as some kind of sarcastic response. It is not.

Sorry.

Apology accepted on the previous statement. I thought you were being rude and sarcastic toward me. Thank you for clarifying, I apologize for assuming.

As far as this statement is concerned, let me give you an example: Suppose I am talking to someone about Joe. "Do you remember Joe from the bank? I think he can help you. Go in and ask for him." "What does he look like?" "He's black, tall, funny, likes to joke around with the customers." "Ok, yes now I know who you are talking about."

How would I describe a "black" person to a "black" person when I don't know which euphemism to which they take offense? I am mainly talking about description. When I said "them" (I didn't know how they preferred me to "call" them) I was referring to the black race not that particular individual. I should have clarified ... I was typing too quickly because I was aggravated. My apologies for calling you an idiot, that was wrong of me.

Colorblind. In my experience with my colleagues in college and black friends, most didn't like the word. Sure you are colorblind to your friend in particular b/c skin color doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to them either in your friendship, but it does matter as far as that person is concerned in the real world ... all of the problems/generalizations made against them b/c of their skin color and yes the history associated with it. Not recognizing their problems/generalizations is ignorant.

 

[CindyLou]

There are certain words in the English vernacular that have a particularly bitter history, like the N word for black persons, or the F word for queer men.
People are sometimes of split minds on whether or not it is respectful or appropriate for others (particularly those belonging to the group in power) to employ them.
Let's discuss whether this is a matter of over-done political correctedness or a matter of sensitivity/respect and recognition of the invoked trauma. Or something else?

Do you employ such words?
Do you choose your audience when you do?

No, almost never. I was raised in a house where the word "barf" and "crap" were bad words worthy of punishment.

I use curse words now, but the N word and the F word are low class words that I don't even think in my mind, so I don't use them in my speech. I don't really care about political correctness (okay, yeah I do. I don't like offending people) more so they are just crude words that a lady shouldn't be using.

Though, I do believe that the N word used among African Americans is fine if that's what they like but when they say others can't use it ...it makes me roll my eyes. I can say whatever words I want, thanks. I'm the authority over my own speech. I still choose not to use them.

 

[Paladin-X]

@No one in particular, but yes, triggered by Sriracha's response...
I had a discussion with a black friend in college about discrimination and oppression. He tended to over-emphasize the prejudices against himself. He spoke with the pain of ages, but not necessarily from direct experience. I mean, yes he has had to deal with some problems over it and history does play a role in that. What blew my mind was that he somehow tried to make me believe that his pains were worse, because of the suffering of his race as whole, than my pains as I grew up and experienced first-hand, living in a world of discrimination and oppression against English-language speakers. But it was somehow worse because they could see that he was different.

Ok I've never had to sit in the back of the bus because I was English, but neither did he because he was black (The point is in referring to history, not ignoring other challenges he has had). I have experienced other things. As a young child, I was consistently denied refreshments in school because I did not know how to say them in French. I was frequently beat up, not by just one bully, but gangs of them (2 different groups specifically; I don't want to exaggerate it), for no other reason than because I spoke English. I have had a gun waved in my face to scare me, because I spoke English. I have been denied service and treated poorly in stores and restaurants because of the language I speak. Quebec is the only province in Canada to enact a special clause to override the Canadian Charter of Rights and actually impose certain limits of language. There is a branch of the provincial government that actually monitors and regulates the usage of non-French languages. We affectionately referred to them as the language police. Businesses have been lost and shut down due to excess fines because they had larger or more English signs, than French ones.

I do not wish to invalidate the painful history of a people. I acknowledge it and respect it. I refuse, however, to give power to the pain of past precedence, especially one that has never been experienced for themself. To move forward, one must acknowledge, respect, and learn from the past, but not live in it. Yes it is important to learn the history. However, that history does not belong to those who have not experienced it. It invalidates those who have suffered it. I have no doubt that one still suffers from discrimination, but it is not always to such an extent as it has been. Some yes, but most, no. It has taken much contemplation to learn how to distinguish between those who treated me poorly, and generalizing the entire Quebec francophone population. I still have a ways to go yet.

Regardless, it is not about who had it worse. Every individual has their own levels of suffering. Trying to compare one's own suffering by placing weight or value over/under another's is completely asinine.

Colorblind. In my experience with my colleagues in college and black friends, most didn't like the word. Sure you are colorblind to your friend in particular b/c skin color doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to them either in your friendship, but it does matter as far as that person is concerned in the real world ... all of the problems/generalizations made against them b/c of their skin color and yes the history associated with it. Not recognizing their problems/generalizations is ignorant.

The point I wished to make, but got lost on some random tangent, is that regardless of whether I use 'person' or 'black person' to reference an individual, does not somehow translate into being ignorant or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there is an assumption being made that my "colourblindness" is a denial or refusal to acknowledge a person's skin colour (and the history, suffering, etc behind it). I assure you, that is a twisted hippy logic that I do not employ. (This does not mean that all hippies employ this logic or that all hippies are twisted.) It is more of a naivety or child-like innocence. Growing up, I honestly did not know that being black was a 'thing' to be recognized as anything more than a visual characteristic, like a blonde person or someone with hazel coloured eyes.

I still only see an individual as an individual though. People tease me by saying that I'm into Chinese girls. However, I have only ever dated one Chinese girl and her heritage was hardly why I liked her. I have dated a black girl, but no one ever says that I'm into black girls. Why? Well that is not as much of a 'thing' or concept as being into Chinese girls. What I mean to say, is that I do not make extra effort to acknowledge generalizations, histories, stereotypes, etc of a person. But that does not mean I deny or ignore them either.

NOTE: This does not mean that I believe that anyone outside how I think is wrong, or ignorant. This is merely how I view the world. To each their own.

Sorry. I got lost on so many things there. I hope I did not ruin the point I wanted to make.

[MENTION=4423]Sriracha[/MENTION]
Thank you for your response. I am humbled by your ability to acknowledge my miscommunication and respond in such a rational manner. I am not always so graceful.

 

[Soulful]

It's funny you should word it like that, since the word "queer" itself is one that originally had negative connotations and is still sometimes used as an insult.

From Wikipedia:

I personally have no problem with the word. I don't do it often, but I'd call myself queer.

What most people are unaware of, though, is the negative history of the word "gay."

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

I really don't like it when people use the word gay in a negative sense, à la "that's so gay." There are so many other words one could use in that context. As for "faggot," well...it's very not-nice, to put it lightly. If a straight person called me a faggot, I'd be very offended. Maybe even furious. Even if a friend said it jokingly, I'd let them know it bothers me. But I'd be lying if I said I've never referred to myself or other gay guys as fags/faggots/faggy. Haven't done that in a while, though.

I think it's interesting how anti-gay religious folk will usually use the word "homosexual" rather than "gay." It's kind of clinical and dehumanizing, I guess.

And as for racial slurs, I rarely use them, and when I do it's in a totally joking manner. But I'd never use them in the presence of a person of that race.

Some people think political correctness is stupid. I don't think that showing respect and consideration for others is stupid. And this may be slightly off-topic, but what about the whole "happy holidays" debate? I celebrate Christmas, and I think that to insist on saying "merry Christmas" and blatantly disregard the fact that there are people of other religions and cultural traditions who are celebrating other holidays at that time of year is pure cuntishness. (I'll admit it, I use the word "cunt" a lot. I think it's funny. I once had a professor who said she thought it was the most horrible word in the English language.)

I learned a while ago that the word "queer" tends to have different connotations among the younger populations vs. older generations, because it was used as a slur some time ago. However, I use it because it seems to be the most current word in use nowadays and one that encompasses a variety of sexual and gender identities other than straight/cissexual, so it seems most comprehensive. But I can imagine how that may be an issue for some people as well. I didn't know that gay had been used pejoratively, though. Thanks. =)

Homosexual does sound like a very clinical term... "Oh, he's a homosexual." It just sounds strange to me, but I suppose that's a sign of the era in which I grew up.

 

[Nixie]

Okay, as a minority (believe me, there are less than 10,000 enrolled Quinault Indians) here is my take. I think the overall missing element is that a lot of people like to think that "racism" is a thing of the past. That is not true.

For example, the Treyvon Martin case and a recent judgement against a major bank for knowingly steering black customers (with the same credit rating as white people) toward more expensive loans with the color of their skin being the deciding factor. Those are some very recent events that have been in the news....but stuff like this has been going on for many decades....for example, the fact that Native women were still being steralized without their consent by the federal government until the 1970's. So we haven't come as far as most people think but sure like to pat ourselves on the back as a nation and pretend like things aren't done along a racial divide.

This doesn't include the everyday things such as automatically being followed in a store or being asked for ID when nobody else in line is being asked--and when you question they say it is policy--you point out that nobody else is being asked--they say they know them--you ask them what is that person's name then--they get mad--LOL Or being in a major college town and having a car full of white boys scream obcenities at you and then pull back around to circle around you while saying racial slurs at you.

So yea, we still have a ways to go--there hasn't even been a generation that has passed (it is getting close) since civil rights demonstrations and legislation was enacted in our country. As a whole, we are terrible short sighted about such things and pacify ourselves that all the work is done when it is not.

I refuse to allow some to call me a squaw because it is disrespectful to me and the Native women who came before me. It is a racial slur. Also, I understand the facination with Native culture, I do but I despise the portrayal of Natives in the cinema. It is usually a non-native playing the part and they get the tribal affiliations wrong or the ceremonies portrayed wrong. The other thing I hate is the "great white hope" who comes in to save the poor Indians ala Dances With Wolves.

 

[CindyLou]

[MENTION=3096]Stormy1[/MENTION]

I completely agree. I've noticed that too, now with a more mature eye...and it makes me cringe. I completely understand why you feel that way. People don't like to think about the terrible things we've done collectively in our past and present, because it doesn't feel good.

 

[CindyLou]

I learned a while ago that the word "queer" tends to have different connotations among the younger populations vs. older generations, because it was used as a slur some time ago. However, I use it because it seems to be the most current word in use nowadays and one that encompasses a variety of sexual and gender identities other than straight/cissexual, so it seems most comprehensive. But I can imagine how that may be an issue for some people as well. I didn't know that gay had been used pejoratively, though. Thanks. =)

Homosexual does sound like a very clinical term... "Oh, he's a homosexual." It just sounds strange to me, but I suppose that's a sign of the era in which I grew up.

I use the word homosexual (not anti-gay) but I used to use the word homo until someone told me it was offensive. I didn't know it was offensive, I had no idea.

The word cvnt is gross. I won't even type it out. Disgusting, garbage word that I would save only for a woman that deserved it (I've not used it yet haha) Why would people want that garbage to come out of their mouths?

 

[Soulful]

I use the word homosexual (not anti-gay) but I used to use the word homo until someone told me it was offensive. I didn't know it was offensive, I had no idea.

The word cvnt is gross. I won't even type it out. Disgusting, garbage word that I would save only for a woman that deserved it (I've not used it yet haha) Why would people want that garbage to come out of their mouths?

Agreed. I hate that word.

Yeah, I hear you. It's obviously impossible to know something until you're exposed to it or informed about it. Words seem to be especially difficult in some circumstances because they may be used differently and understood differently by the same group, and people may use innocently without realizing that others may take offense, etc.