Is everything a metaphor? | INFJ Forum

Is everything a metaphor?

Satyagrahi

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Nov 19, 2017
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This question came to my mind a few weeks ago and I've been thinking about it a lot. Even material world things we take for granted like mathematics. Is math just a metaphor? Equations describing motion and velocity after all aren't ACTUALLY motion or velocity but is velocity even velocity or motion even motion or just another metaphor to describe something we are clueless about? Meditating on what motion is just leads me to more concepts and ideas that could be construed as metaphor in absence of concrete KNOWING (whatever that is) and can't be rested on default BELIEVING or THEORIZING for they overflow with metaphor. We continually develop more and more sensitive instruments to describe the world around us but again are the instruments just another metaphor? Just an unrelated object used to describe something we could never truly understand.
 
This question came to my mind a few weeks ago and I've been thinking about it a lot. Even material world things we take for granted like mathematics. Is math just a metaphor? Equations describing motion and velocity after all aren't ACTUALLY motion or velocity but is velocity even velocity or motion even motion or just another metaphor to describe something we are clueless about? Meditating on what motion is just leads me to more concepts and ideas that could be construed as metaphor in absence of concrete KNOWING (whatever that is) and can't be rested on default BELIEVING or THEORIZING for they overflow with metaphor. We continually develop more and more sensitive instruments to describe the world around us but again are the instruments just another metaphor? Just an unrelated object used to describe something we could never truly understand.
You have set upon the true path to enlightenment:

Kantianism.

Lol

By which I mean, yes. Yes, I agree with you.
 
This question came to my mind a few weeks ago and I've been thinking about it a lot. Even material world things we take for granted like mathematics. Is math just a metaphor? Equations describing motion and velocity after all aren't ACTUALLY motion or velocity but is velocity even velocity or motion even motion or just another metaphor to describe something we are clueless about? Meditating on what motion is just leads me to more concepts and ideas that could be construed as metaphor in absence of concrete KNOWING (whatever that is) and can't be rested on default BELIEVING or THEORIZING for they overflow with metaphor. We continually develop more and more sensitive instruments to describe the world around us but again are the instruments just another metaphor? Just an unrelated object used to describe something we could never truly understand.
Yeah I often feel trapped by subjectivism. In terms of, I know that in the process of being alive and a person, I am biased by my own experiences and possibly genetic factors so no matter what I seek to believe to be true, no matter what conclusions I reach, I will never know everything and therefore never have any sense of objectivity and accuracy.

Most of the time I force myself to forget about it but whenever it pops back up and I am unable to whack-a-mole the realization, I end up becoming so disturbed that I'm eventually forced to find the whole thing incredibly absurd and laugh about it instead of taking it as some paralyzing mind plague.

I suppose, in that sense, humor has been my primary coping mechanism with the occasional existential dread that is the fact of social constructs and life merely being a nice description we slop together of complexity no single human being will ever hope to fully understand.
 
INFJs are cute when they try to do Ti.

No, it's not. A metaphor is transferring a characteristic to an object/idea ect. that cannot have that characteristic in reality. A non literal use of language. For example, "he has a heart of gold". What maths and physics do is describe with language something theoretical and incorporeal.
 
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I was hoping my question would circumvent the spiritualist and materialist dogmas and personal neurosis we humans seem to be hopelessly entwined. I like to try and get my mind in a place absent all conditioning. I can understand the appeal of using and defining a narrow set of rules to discover something supposedly new like one would in a game. I want to step outside the game because frankly I think it is boring. But to continue with the game analogy or metaphor (depending on how attached or detached anything is from "actual reality") suppose what is going on around you right now is just a dream and the game is being played inside the dream. The conscious entities inside the dream agree upon the "rules". With that in mind then how about straying from the pack? Let the ones who enjoy playing games play their little game. I prefer to rest my attention on what's outside the game. Coming to the understanding that "I know that I know nothing" but ignoring the cliches and dogmas that just entangle you in the game again.
 
Coming to the understanding that "I know that I know nothing" but ignoring the cliches and dogmas that just entangle you in the game again.

The problem is, that sort of reasoning is self-perpetuating and makes itself impotent by its own premise. The irony of it is included in Socrates's maxim itself. In order to fabricate some grand scheme of truth, one has to take the leap of faith and presume that he does indeed knows something - whether that something will change eventually is a different matter. Even "open-mindedness", in the general sense of the word, is binding to its own process of thought. I could just paraphrase and make myself look very clever, but let me drop this bit of Chesterton here instead:

"Whether the human mind can advance or not, is a question too little discussed, for nothing can be more dangerous than to found our social philosophy on any theory which is debatable but has not been debated. But if we assume, for the sake of argument, that there has been in the past, or will be in the future, such a thing as a growth or improvement of the human mind itself, there still remains a very sharp objection to be raised against the modern version of that improvement. The vice of the modern notion of mental progress is that it is always something concerned with the breaking of bonds, the effacing of boundaries, the casting away of dogmas. But if there be such a thing as mental growth, it must mean the growth into more and more definite convictions, into more and more dogmas. The human brain is a machine for coming to conclusions; if it cannot come to conclusions it is rusty. When we hear of a man too clever to believe, we are hearing of something having almost the character of a contradiction in terms. It is like hearing of a nail that was too good to hold down a carpet; or a bolt that was too strong to keep a door shut. Man can hardly be defined, after the fashion of Carlyle, as an animal who makes tools; ants and beavers and many other animals make tools, in the sense that they make an apparatus. Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. As he piles doctrine on doctrine and conclusion on conclusion in the formation of some tremendous scheme of philosophy and religion, he is, in the only legitimate sense of which the expression is capable, becoming more and more human. When he drops one doctrine after another in a refined scepticism, when he declines to tie himself to a system, when he says that he has outgrown definitions, when he says that he disbelieves in finality, when, in his own imagination, he sits as God, holding no form of creed but contemplating all, then he is by that very process sinking slowly backwards into the vagueness of the vagrant animals and the unconsciousness of the grass. Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded."
 
The problem is, that sort of reasoning is self-perpetuating and makes itself impotent by its own premise. The irony of it is included in Socrates's maxim itself. In order to fabricate some grand scheme of truth, one has to take the leap of faith and presume that he does indeed knows something - whether that something will change eventually is a different matter. Even "open-mindedness", in the general sense of the word, is binding to its own process of thought. I could just paraphrase and make myself look very clever, but let me drop this bit of Chesterton here instead:

"Whether the human mind can advance or not, is a question too little discussed, for nothing can be more dangerous than to found our social philosophy on any theory which is debatable but has not been debated. But if we assume, for the sake of argument, that there has been in the past, or will be in the future, such a thing as a growth or improvement of the human mind itself, there still remains a very sharp objection to be raised against the modern version of that improvement. The vice of the modern notion of mental progress is that it is always something concerned with the breaking of bonds, the effacing of boundaries, the casting away of dogmas. But if there be such a thing as mental growth, it must mean the growth into more and more definite convictions, into more and more dogmas. The human brain is a machine for coming to conclusions; if it cannot come to conclusions it is rusty. When we hear of a man too clever to believe, we are hearing of something having almost the character of a contradiction in terms. It is like hearing of a nail that was too good to hold down a carpet; or a bolt that was too strong to keep a door shut. Man can hardly be defined, after the fashion of Carlyle, as an animal who makes tools; ants and beavers and many other animals make tools, in the sense that they make an apparatus. Man can be defined as an animal that makes dogmas. As he piles doctrine on doctrine and conclusion on conclusion in the formation of some tremendous scheme of philosophy and religion, he is, in the only legitimate sense of which the expression is capable, becoming more and more human. When he drops one doctrine after another in a refined scepticism, when he declines to tie himself to a system, when he says that he has outgrown definitions, when he says that he disbelieves in finality, when, in his own imagination, he sits as God, holding no form of creed but contemplating all, then he is by that very process sinking slowly backwards into the vagueness of the vagrant animals and the unconsciousness of the grass. Trees have no dogmas. Turnips are singularly broad-minded."
That's a great quote.
 
And what is that exactly :thonking:
Good question and what I've been contemplating for quite a while. It's direct knowledge. Everything we seem to "know" about anything is second hand. Is it possible to discuss or consider the nature of reality without bringing in the filtering mechanisms of what someone else said or wrote? This goes back to my original question is everything a metaphor? We're just in this warehouse of reality with its "rules" because those around us conditioned us to this limited space and we can't get out of it because the dogma of said "rules". I don't mean "The Matrix" either which is another conditioning/meme where by culturally it's easy to "believe" someone or something (aliens) are manipulating us because again second hand "knowledge" (stupidity) has conditioned us like lab rats that of course someone or something is lording over you like some pathetic and abused child. This is the stupid mindset I'm tired of. Again is there such thing as direct knowledge / empowerment?
 
This is the stupid mindset I'm tired of. Again is there such thing as direct knowledge / empowerment?

You have three options
1. Rutabaga
2. Turnip
3. Leaf

Choose wisely.
 
Good question and what I've been contemplating for quite a while. It's direct knowledge. Everything we seem to "know" about anything is second hand. Is it possible to discuss or consider the nature of reality without bringing in the filtering mechanisms of what someone else said or wrote? This goes back to my original question is everything a metaphor? We're just in this warehouse of reality with its "rules" because those around us conditioned us to this limited space and we can't get out of it because the dogma of said "rules". I don't mean "The Matrix" either which is another conditioning/meme where by culturally it's easy to "believe" someone or something (aliens) are manipulating us because again second hand "knowledge" (stupidity) has conditioned us like lab rats that of course someone or something is lording over you like some pathetic and abused child. This is the stupid mindset I'm tired of. Again is there such thing as direct knowledge / empowerment?
It's quite a rabbit hole pursuing this sort of question, because seeking direct knowledge can lead in strange directions, and very disconcerting ones. The whole of what we experience takes place inside our minds, and reflecting deeply on its reality can actually result in us needing an act of faith that what we experience really does relate to what is beyond our own existence.
When we reflect on our own self, the reality of that too is cast into doubt because what we experience as 'I' is itself a projection into our minds of a reality that is elusive.
Playing with these ideas intellectually is interesting, but if it leads unexpectedly into actually directly experiencing them it may be life-changing in totally unanticipated ways that can be difficult to come to terms with. I'm not saying don't do it, but be prepared for a fall down that rabbit hole.
 
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Sigh... People who can't distinguish mental concepts from independent realities are frustrating.

Your concepts about things are just qualities inherent to your physical brain. They aren't actually anything more substantial than the arrangement of chemicals in your neurons.

If you're talking about a chair falling, the reality is an actual object following space curvature, not some mental or incorporeal reality. Of course, how we describe the world, and can make mistakes/fantasies is a matter for psychology and neurology, not the physics of motion and relativity.
 
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are the instruments just another metaphor
In some sense, they are. Math itself is not a metaphor, math is the conscious limitation on what the human brain can utilise to describe its surroundings.

If you're talking about a chair falling, the reality is an actual object following space curvature, not some mental or incorporeal reality. Of course, how we describe the world, and can make mistakes/fantasies is a matter for psychology and neurology, not the physics of motion and relativity.
Correct.

I miss the times where natural order was sufficient.
 
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The problem is intractable though. All we ever experience takes place within our minds and is a model of what may be happening in a so-called external world. We tend not to question whether such a world actually exists and it seems plausible that it does, but there can be no actual proof.

I suppose that we could say our minds provide us with a metaphorical representation of the real world if it does really exist - but that implies that we can compare our experiences of the world with the real thing, but we can’t so I hesitate to call it metaphorical. Instead we each live within our own private universes. It’s really only on trust that we can say that they do in fact give us access to a real world and to each other’s private universes.

As an example of how challenging it can be once we start to think about it deeply, consider how hard it is to prove conclusively that there was a yesterday.
 
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The problem is intractable though. All we ever experience takes place within our minds and is a model of what may be happening in a so-called external world. We tend not to question whether such a world actually exists and it seems plausible that it does, but there can be no actual proof.

I suppose that we could say our minds provide us with a metaphorical representation of the real world if it does really exist - but that implies that we can compare our experiences of the world with the real thing, but we can’t so I hesitate to call it metaphorical. Instead we each live within our own private universes. It’s really only on trust that we can say that they do in fact give us access to a real world and to each other’s private universes.

As an example of how challenging it can be once we start to think about it deeply, consider how hard it is to prove conclusively that there was a yesterday.

It is still built on a sense of agreeability.
 
It is still built on a sense of agreeability.
Yes definitely! My belief is that while we are awake our minds, anchored by our senses, provide a synchronised model of the world that is homomorphic sufficiently to the real one that we are very well fitted to it.

I can’t prove that there is an external reality but it’s by far the most plausible option. For me it’s a choice that I have to make, though, to decide this, because it can never be one compelled by any hard evidence. That’s because any evidence would have to beg the question.

However this doesn’t seem to me to mean that we can actually experience the real world as it really is. Things that dominate our senses such as colour, smell, even the differentiation of objects, are all constructed by our mental processes as simplifying models - ‘metaphors’ - of the underlying reality.

The evidence of the way our minds create a model of reality which we accept as the real thing comes from the immersive experience of dreams which while we are in them we usually think are real. The underlying dream mechanism is obviously freewheeling with our reality model when it isn’t anchored through our senses and consciousness to the real world.