If you don't want to read this whole long thing, you can skip to the end for the questions, however I suggest reading the background for these questions. If you do answer those questions without reading the background, please say so if you reply to this thread. I'm extremely interested to hear other peoples thoughts. Thank you.
Ok, so I was watching a show called Through the Wormhole (episode Does the Ocean Think?) and I have to say, at first I was appalled at what the show was implying. I won't describe it much, but they started talking about the interaction of water molecules represented a life form, but I very much disagreed with that. Later on, they described a simple way that most biologists (according to the show) use to classify something as alive. They said that if it (it being a system of its own) eats, process, and deposits "stuff", then it can be considered a system of life. I can see the logic in this as this process allows for growth and decay of the system, along with a potential for reproduction (but that is not an inherent property to the kind of life system we are describing). They continued to relate this to the ocean as a whole organism with the different individual life forms (animals, plants, and microbes) to be the systems within the greater organism (the ocean). They describe the way the ocean goes through this process by tracking chemicals in the ocean and can see a pattern that resembles that process. I would almost describe it as a play on words, but I could understand where they were coming from. It was relating the way that complex life has different systems (for us, organs), usually of smaller life (for us, individual cells and foreign bodies like bacteria) and tried to show the ocean had a similar concept as well with the interactions of the different species. This to me seemed reasonable, however said nothing useful other than it agrees with the basic classification that we are using to classify life. How do we know what this life form should be (to keep it healthy)? How much of the interactions of the ocean would be considered a part of the organism? There is also the issue that this organism (ocean) does not reproduce or make copies of itself. However I can accept that and it still be alive on the basis of it does allow for growth within the system. This also doesn't even show that you can consider the ocean as a life because to me, with these basic characteristics, many things can fit the idea of life such as planets, stars, and even whole galaxies. This makes me wonder if we are not describing life, but simply an intrinsic property of the natural laws of the universe. Basically, that things will change, and systems of themselves will develop whenever or wherever possible. Kind of implying that growth is a natural property of the universe.
Right now, I just want to talk about the ocean (we can continue to consider planets, stars, and galaxies later). This shows a possible life form that is very different from our own form of life, however still possibly a life form. Interesting the difference in scale, and why its such a hard concept to us. Well I considered it more accurate to say that any system of basic life (like an ecosystem) will show many of the same patterns of individual life. This meaning eating, processing, and depositing "stuff". So by that logic, I agreed that you could consider the ocean as one big complex life form because if a whole system of life can take on the characteristics of the individual life, then why can we not consider the entire system to be alive? This could also be another inherent property of the universe. Perhaps this could mirror the way that as time increases, complexity increases. I think that's the law of entropy? I don't remember for sure. But anyways, as soon as life developed, it would become ever more complicated. Maybe it becomes more complicated because as you develop life, you develop systems of life, then those systems can themselves become alive to create new system of interdependency of these bigger systems, and continue this cycle. Interesting to consider...
However, I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that the galaxy is a possible form of life, instead of just an interaction of the basic laws of the universe. Although my uncertainty might be contradictory, lol. If life is a natural property of the universe (yes I think this), then perhaps we could consider the galaxies themselves to be alive? I don't know. This is not to say anything of consciousness, only the basic kind of life as a specific type of interaction.
Later in the show, they compare the ocean in more ways that suggest it is a kind of complicated life representative of systems like animals. This is to say there are certain responsive systems of the ocean itself to react to stimuli. These systems they described were usually in the form of bacteria that are simply reactive to outside stimuli or "harmful" bodies. The show described how the ocean has a way of recovering from catastrophes.
Now here's where it gets interesting. at the 45 minute mark of the 1 hour long episode, they start talking about something that is the reason I had to make this thread. Some scientist guy discovered that there is a certain bacteria that is very common in the ocean that has a tendency to form (when deprived of heavy metals for respiration) what he calls bacterial nanowires. Bacterial nanowires are multiple connections between each different bacterial cell that are capable of transducing electrical current. This happens because this bacteria "breathes" using electrons rather than oxygen. Well it gains electrons from heavy metals in the ocean around it. If deprived of heavy metals, the bacteria becomes connected to distribute electrons as a way to survive. Electrons are electric current. Electrical signal transduction. There are also hundreds of trillions of trillions of bacteria cells each having an unknown number of connections. This sounds very much like our neural network. Our brain has about one hundred billion neurons with trillions of connections. This ocean network would have on the order of ten trillion times the number of cells in our brain, and who knows how many connections. They also noticed that this network transduces current a thousand times faster than our own neural network.
To sum that up, ten trillion times more cells than our brain, unknown how many more connections, and a transduction speed a thousand times faster than ours. This network is also believed to be spread out over 140,000,000 square miles of ocean floor leading to this network. If it has thoughts, it would have thoughts over the course of hundreds if not thousands of years. Slower time "thinking" (if it does think) simply because it is so spread out.
1. Is the concept of some system that eats, processes, and deposits "stuff" sufficient as a rule to determine what is life?
2. What should we add to our definition of life if those three characteristics are not sufficient?
3. Can we classify the ocean as a kind of super sized life form? Why or why not?
4. Do you agree that sentience or consciousness/self awareness develops from highly complex and interacting systems that exchange information?
5. Do you think it's possible for this ocean network to be sentient?
6. Do you think it's possible for this ocean network to be alive in the sense of self aware?
7. If it does think, what do you think it would think about?
If you have any other questions or comments or points you would like to discuss, please bring them up. I'm very excited to hear what other people think of this discovery?
Ok, so I was watching a show called Through the Wormhole (episode Does the Ocean Think?) and I have to say, at first I was appalled at what the show was implying. I won't describe it much, but they started talking about the interaction of water molecules represented a life form, but I very much disagreed with that. Later on, they described a simple way that most biologists (according to the show) use to classify something as alive. They said that if it (it being a system of its own) eats, process, and deposits "stuff", then it can be considered a system of life. I can see the logic in this as this process allows for growth and decay of the system, along with a potential for reproduction (but that is not an inherent property to the kind of life system we are describing). They continued to relate this to the ocean as a whole organism with the different individual life forms (animals, plants, and microbes) to be the systems within the greater organism (the ocean). They describe the way the ocean goes through this process by tracking chemicals in the ocean and can see a pattern that resembles that process. I would almost describe it as a play on words, but I could understand where they were coming from. It was relating the way that complex life has different systems (for us, organs), usually of smaller life (for us, individual cells and foreign bodies like bacteria) and tried to show the ocean had a similar concept as well with the interactions of the different species. This to me seemed reasonable, however said nothing useful other than it agrees with the basic classification that we are using to classify life. How do we know what this life form should be (to keep it healthy)? How much of the interactions of the ocean would be considered a part of the organism? There is also the issue that this organism (ocean) does not reproduce or make copies of itself. However I can accept that and it still be alive on the basis of it does allow for growth within the system. This also doesn't even show that you can consider the ocean as a life because to me, with these basic characteristics, many things can fit the idea of life such as planets, stars, and even whole galaxies. This makes me wonder if we are not describing life, but simply an intrinsic property of the natural laws of the universe. Basically, that things will change, and systems of themselves will develop whenever or wherever possible. Kind of implying that growth is a natural property of the universe.
Right now, I just want to talk about the ocean (we can continue to consider planets, stars, and galaxies later). This shows a possible life form that is very different from our own form of life, however still possibly a life form. Interesting the difference in scale, and why its such a hard concept to us. Well I considered it more accurate to say that any system of basic life (like an ecosystem) will show many of the same patterns of individual life. This meaning eating, processing, and depositing "stuff". So by that logic, I agreed that you could consider the ocean as one big complex life form because if a whole system of life can take on the characteristics of the individual life, then why can we not consider the entire system to be alive? This could also be another inherent property of the universe. Perhaps this could mirror the way that as time increases, complexity increases. I think that's the law of entropy? I don't remember for sure. But anyways, as soon as life developed, it would become ever more complicated. Maybe it becomes more complicated because as you develop life, you develop systems of life, then those systems can themselves become alive to create new system of interdependency of these bigger systems, and continue this cycle. Interesting to consider...
However, I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that the galaxy is a possible form of life, instead of just an interaction of the basic laws of the universe. Although my uncertainty might be contradictory, lol. If life is a natural property of the universe (yes I think this), then perhaps we could consider the galaxies themselves to be alive? I don't know. This is not to say anything of consciousness, only the basic kind of life as a specific type of interaction.
Later in the show, they compare the ocean in more ways that suggest it is a kind of complicated life representative of systems like animals. This is to say there are certain responsive systems of the ocean itself to react to stimuli. These systems they described were usually in the form of bacteria that are simply reactive to outside stimuli or "harmful" bodies. The show described how the ocean has a way of recovering from catastrophes.
Now here's where it gets interesting. at the 45 minute mark of the 1 hour long episode, they start talking about something that is the reason I had to make this thread. Some scientist guy discovered that there is a certain bacteria that is very common in the ocean that has a tendency to form (when deprived of heavy metals for respiration) what he calls bacterial nanowires. Bacterial nanowires are multiple connections between each different bacterial cell that are capable of transducing electrical current. This happens because this bacteria "breathes" using electrons rather than oxygen. Well it gains electrons from heavy metals in the ocean around it. If deprived of heavy metals, the bacteria becomes connected to distribute electrons as a way to survive. Electrons are electric current. Electrical signal transduction. There are also hundreds of trillions of trillions of bacteria cells each having an unknown number of connections. This sounds very much like our neural network. Our brain has about one hundred billion neurons with trillions of connections. This ocean network would have on the order of ten trillion times the number of cells in our brain, and who knows how many connections. They also noticed that this network transduces current a thousand times faster than our own neural network.
To sum that up, ten trillion times more cells than our brain, unknown how many more connections, and a transduction speed a thousand times faster than ours. This network is also believed to be spread out over 140,000,000 square miles of ocean floor leading to this network. If it has thoughts, it would have thoughts over the course of hundreds if not thousands of years. Slower time "thinking" (if it does think) simply because it is so spread out.
1. Is the concept of some system that eats, processes, and deposits "stuff" sufficient as a rule to determine what is life?
2. What should we add to our definition of life if those three characteristics are not sufficient?
3. Can we classify the ocean as a kind of super sized life form? Why or why not?
4. Do you agree that sentience or consciousness/self awareness develops from highly complex and interacting systems that exchange information?
5. Do you think it's possible for this ocean network to be sentient?
6. Do you think it's possible for this ocean network to be alive in the sense of self aware?
7. If it does think, what do you think it would think about?
If you have any other questions or comments or points you would like to discuss, please bring them up. I'm very excited to hear what other people think of this discovery?
