(INFJs & Harmony) Really? | INFJ Forum

(INFJs & Harmony) Really?

sedna

sedna

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May 22, 2009
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So I've been reading the INFJ descriptions and overwhelmingly they all point to INFJs love of harmony.

Hmm...I would say this does not apply to me at all. On the surface harmony seems to offer some contentedness, but a lot of needs go unmet, some words go unexpressed...there's too much dissatisfaction for true harmony to exist. Ultimately I view harmony as a false-state that is nearly impossible to achieve. I'm always surprised folks opt for it, when something better, more invigorating, more truthful is just around the corner with a little disturbance, a little drama, a little something else.

I do have a tendency to poke at people if something great can emerge, but I realize that this is not always received well by others and it might look like I was being a jerk. Anyway, I guess it's more important for me to arrive at a certain truth or idea that's bigger than the need for false-harmony. My interactions with others can be quite turbulent if I feel I'm pushed into some conformist harmonized view that's not my ideal, in order to make others feel safe.
 
Aren't you simply stating that you strive for true harmony? A lot of people lie to themselves about their own happiness. Sure, things may get turbulent but aren't you still stating that your ultimate goal is harmony? I'm totally willing to make things messy if it means a greater amount of good in the long run. Some people are fine living with falsehoods. It can be easier.
 
sedna said:
So I've been reading the INFJ descriptions and overwhelmingly they all point to INFJs love of harmony.

Hmm...I would say this does not apply to me at all. On the surface harmony seems to offer some contentedness, but a lot of needs go unmet, some words go unexpressed...there's too much dissatisfaction for true harmony to exist. Ultimately I view harmony as a false-state that is nearly impossible to achieve. I'm always surprised folks opt for it, when something better, more invigorating, more truthful is just around the corner with a little disturbance, a little drama, a little something else.

I do have a tendency to poke at people if something great can emerge, but I realize that this is not always received well by others and it might look like I was being a jerk. Anyway, I guess it's more important for me to arrive at a certain truth or idea that's bigger than the need for false-harmony. My interactions with others can be quite turbulent if I feel I'm pushed into some conformist harmonized view that's not my ideal, in order to make others feel safe.
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Being directed to the definition of harmony it has some connection with a sense of peace or calm.

I feel a sense of calm and peace when I interact with others in a way that respects and honors their expression and still respects and honors my own. My own expression would not be one desiring disturbance or drama. I have engaged with those who seem to have that desire as an elemental part of their expression and if that is the case for you, as your description seems to indicate, then yes, I suspect harmonious interactions would be something you would value less. In meeting your need to poke or prod someone on to something "bigger" you may be disrupting another person's sense of peace.

I do value harmony highly, far more highly than a desire to use disturbance to push people toward something viewed as a greater end. I would more likely want to gently encourage someone toward consideration of something different in a way I sense they would feel comfortable with. I hold both approaches in value and think there is a place in the world for both, but I would most consistently choose the more harmonious approach.
 
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Wyote said:
Aren't you simply stating that you strive for true harmony? A lot of people lie to themselves about their own happiness. Sure, things may get turbulent but aren't you still stating that your ultimate goal is harmony? I'm totally willing to make things messy if it means a greater amount of good in the long run. Some people are fine living with falsehoods. It can be easier.
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Actually, no Wyote, I wouldn't say my ultimate goal is harmony. Gathering unlike variables and having them exist on their own terms seems more favorable to me. An authentic coexistence is great but in most group situations that's very difficult to achieve. Because I always seem to be on the outskirts, its very easy for me to notice dominance, submission, conformity, suppression of ideas and other stuff I find bothersome. I think that's why I'm a loner. I have no desire to fit into a group in a harmonious fashion, because at the end of the day, I'd feel like I've suppressed a part of myself.
 
Truth is harmony. But truth is not possible without love (not romantic love), and love is not possible without understanding, and understanding is not possible without sensitivity. INFJs are sensitive, so we need to embrace instead of run from that sensitivity.

You sound like you're trying to find true harmony instead of superficial harmony.
 
sedna said:
Gathering unlike variables and having them exist on their own terms seems more favorable to me.
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That is harmony, and the very reason it is so difficult - impossible - to achieve.
 
tovlo said:
Being directed to the definition of harmony it has some connection with a sense of peace or calm.

I feel a sense of calm and peace when I interact with others in a way that respects and honors their expression and still respects and honors my own. My own expression would not be one desiring disturbance or drama. I have engaged with those who seem to have that desire as an elemental part of their expression and if that is the case for you, as your description seems to indicate, then yes, I suspect harmonious interactions would be something you would value less. In meeting your need to poke or prod someone on to something "bigger" you may be disrupting another person's sense of peace.

I do value harmony highly, far more highly than a desire to use disturbance to push people toward something viewed as a greater end. I would more likely want to gently encourage someone toward consideration of something different in a way I sense they would feel comfortable with. I hold both approaches in value and think there is a place in the world for both, but I would most consistently choose the more harmonious approach.
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From my POV there is no harmonious approach when we attempt to shave everyone down and buff for smoothness. On the surface it looks prettier, but I'd much rather feel the sting of a splinter or two. Folks should be entitled to their authentic expression, thoughts, ideas, even if it brings disharmony to the group. Rarely do I feel like a human being, when I've chosen to inhibit my self-expression so other people can feel comfortable in my presence. In my teens and twenties I did that a lot, but now, not so much. So in a lot of cases, I do suffer the consequences.
 
Harmony dpesn't always mean consensus. Sometimes it means crushing the will of your opponents. :m029:
 
Wyote said:
That is harmony, and the very reason it is so difficult - impossible - to achieve.
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The word 'harmony' drives me nuts. So if I'm harping on it, it's because there's something about it that doesn't seem right to me. But I hear you Wyote, ultimately it is what I'm striving for (in my disillusioned way.)
 
Dragon said:
Truth is harmony. But truth is not possible without love (not romantic love), and love is not possible without understanding, and understanding is not possible without sensitivity. INFJs are sensitive, so we need to embrace instead of run from that sensitivity.

You sound like you're trying to find true harmony instead of superficial harmony.
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Truth. Yes. Understanding. Yes. Love. YES.

Harmony. No.

True harmony. Yes.
 
Dragon said:
You sound like you're trying to find true harmony instead of superficial harmony.
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I also sensed in sedna's expression a lack of value for a superficial harmony where people are "playing nice", but not really feeling very nice underneath it all, but I did not sense their described preferred interaction as harmonious. I think their described style can be an efficacious one, but not easily harmonious.

If sedna has a need for disrupting peace and calm to push someone through discomfort to a new place, then I don't think interactions could easily be harmonious in that environment. In order to meet another person's need for calm and peace, they'd have to stifle their own need to shake things up, and if they meet their need to shake things up, someone else would have their need for peace and calm disturbed. It makes sense to me that they would not have a high value for harmonious relationship if they do have a high value for moving people to new places through discomfort.
 
sedna said:
The word 'harmony' drives me nuts. So if I'm harping on it, it's because there's something about it that doesn't seem right to me. But I hear you Wyote, ultimately it is what I'm striving for (in my disillusioned way.)
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Hey no worries, it's somewhat of a frustrating word for myself. When it's thought about musically or in a more traditional sense, harmony among people is total bunk. When you apply it in a more open ended and philosophical sense, it is what most if not all people are after, not just INFJs.

I don't like conforming to anything any more than the next person, but I do tend to do it more than others when I see its benefits to me. I think this is what INFJs tend to do, which you may purposefully go against for whatever reasons.
 
sedna said:
From my POV there is no harmonious approach when we attempt to shave everyone down and buff for smoothness. On the surface it looks prettier, but I'd much rather feel the sting of a splinter or two. Folks should be entitled to their authentic expression, thoughts, ideas, even if it brings disharmony to the group. Rarely do I feel like a human being, when I've chosen to inhibit my self-expression so other people can feel comfortable in my presence. In my teens and twenties I did that a lot, but now, not so much. So in a lot of cases, I do suffer the consequences.
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Absolutely. The thing is, I personally do not feel a I've been shaved down and buffed for smoothness in allowing others their authentic expression and honoring my own. My own authentic expression is one that values the comfortable co-existence of varying perspectives and I do not often feel the desire to move on the perspectives of others, so I can honestly stand in comfort (calm and peace) with those that differ from me and I hope (strive) to create an environment with my actions where others feel equally comfortable standing near me in their differing perspective.
 
Conflict is very distressing for me. When there is a big argument I instinctively try to help work it out and if that doesn't work I have to leave the room lest the negative vibes in the room drive me over the edge emotionally (a big aspect of my Aspergers is sensory sensitivity and sensitivity to the emotional "vibes" of the environment seems to a part of that).

There are few things I dislike more then perfectly reasonable people demonizing each other over real or imagined differences of opinion rather than working together on things they do agree with.

I'll fully admit to being one of those "can't we all just get along???" kind of people.
 
Let me define what I mean when I speak of harmony. The dictionary definition is:

1. Agreement in feeling or opinion; accord: live in harmony.
2. A pleasing combination of elements in a whole: color harmony; the order and harmony of the universe. See synonyms at proportion.
3. Music.
1. The study of the structure, progression, and relation of chords.
2. Simultaneous combination of notes in a chord.
3. The structure of a work or passage as considered from the point of view of its chordal characteristics and relationships.
4. A combination of sounds considered pleasing to the ear.
4. A collation of parallel passages, especially from the Gospels, with a commentary demonstrating their consonance and explaining their discrepancies.

Because it suits my nature to exist and allow others to exist as they are, I feel my needs are met most of the time by simply experiencing and allowing others to experience.

That is not the case with everyone, nor do I think the world would be a better place if it were so. I think there is great benefit to the world in people acting on their natural instincts to move things forward, to change or alter the course of things. If this is one's nature, unless they happen to be standing with someone in total agreement with them, then harmony (or the comfort of mutually met needs as we seem to be discussing it) would be difficult to achieve.

I sensed that sedna (and perhaps satya) are people who move things. Who's nature is one where they are prompted to create a little discomfort in people to move them to new places. Harmony would not come easily in those situations, if possible at all. I agree that if that is one's nature then either the person who strives to move things would have to stifle that nature and would not likely feel in great harmony with their environment, or they would be creating disharmony in their environment by honoring their nature to disrupt things.

In a bigger picture sense, I do believe there simply is harmony. I believe there is an order to all the different ways people are and even if a smaller environment seems disharmonious, taken out to a wider view there is a greater order and harmony to it all. That is why I feel at peace (even if I feel some discomfort when pushed) with a nature that is different than my own. I believe it serves a purpose that I do not serve in the greater picture of humanity. I don't know this is so, but it is a big picture that gives me comfort and peace to imagine is so anyway.
 
When I think of harmony I think of a choir. When I sit and listen to a choir I feel harmonious lol. All voices are different and yet blending perfectly causing harmony.
In our day to day life I think pride and ego are the main blockades to harmony.
 
sumone said:
When I think of harmony I think of a choir. When I sit and listen to a choir I feel harmonious lol. All voices are different and yet blending perfectly causing harmony.
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:nod:
 
sumone said:
When I think of harmony I think of a choir. When I sit and listen to a choir I feel harmonious lol. All voices are different and yet blending perfectly causing harmony.
In our day to day life I think pride and ego are the main blockades to harmony.
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Sumone, how often do you see this among people (not their vocal chords?) Maybe in utopia. In most environments, even creative ones, most people are expected to adopt the same values as the guy next to them. I find most people would never notice truly understand my perspective because they are smack dab in the center. If you're in the center how can you see with the same eye as some one standing outside the perimeter?
 
Harmony is what you make it. A balance between the good and bad, Yin and Yang, or maybe just that one can deal with the current situation without it being draining.

If your life is reletivly level, your in harmony, balance, whatever you want to call it. Harmony doesn't allways mean "everyone cuddles and hugs and kisses and loves everone else cuitness to the max extream!" *barf*

I don't know, my two cents.
 
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