INFJ's - an INTJ needs your wonder twin powers!

[olias]

OK INFJ's, I'm here to seek your supernatural feeling abilities AND your ability to more or less identify with 3/4 of my way of thinking (read: phrase things in a way I can understand them.)

I'm male, INTJ. I'm dating female, ESTJ. She is seriously in the midst of a inferior Fi grip right now. I know, I know. It is a sight to behold.

So, a few questions from an INTJ who really loves his ESTJ female, but is at a loss with how to support her right now. My normal stable, sane, relatable ESTJ has turned into a quivering, insecure, reactive, hyper sensitive, weepy, projecting mess.

No joke, there is NOTHING I can say to her that isn't received as criticism. I am not the typical emotionally tone deaf INTJ, either. This is crazy town territory with her right now. So I decide to just sit quietly and calmly and let her vent, and I don't say anything so there's no way I can give her a reason to feel criticized. Now she's convinced herself that this is evidence I'm shutting down, pulling away, and getting ready to leave her. Doesn't matter if I tell her what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, reassure her I love her. Nothing makes a difference.

1) Any advice for supporting someone in the midst of a inferior function grip? Bonus points if it's inferior Fi.
2) When someone is in this state - any external input is used to justify her persecution complex, no matter what it is, and silence also goes to confirm her fears. Do I talk? Stick to not talking? Disappear for the next month? (I think the last option is absolutely not the right thing to do, but then again, maybe precisely I think it's the wrong thing to do, it might be the right thing to do?)
3) It is KILLING ME not to fix this for her. I know that is not the right thing to do, but as both an INTJ and an INTJ who understands the dynamics of junian functions, it's pretty obvious she's just tired and burned out and needs to take a break. She is, of course, an ESTJ who is never wrong and never takes a break, and won't accept any solutions that she can't touch, see, or feel. I don't even know my point here. How do I maintain my sanity in the face of her stubborn refusal to either take care of herself, or let someone else take care of her?

Seriously, I love her, but I'm worried this is going to turn into a traumatic event for her, and she's going to blame me because I happen to be in the vicinity. And, knowing the way ESTJ's treat memory and negative personal experience, she'll never be able to get over it and it will permanently ruin our relationship.

Help?

 

[muir]

What are the factors causing her anxiety?

What are the things she has identified as being problems and what are the things that you identify as being problems?

You say she is burnt out...through what?

Is there any possibility that you might be the cause of her anxiety in anyway?

Think about all these things and brain storm with a pen and paper...write down your thoughts

 

[Eventhorizon]

Ha ha ha. I have learned sometimes its not about fixing things its about simplying being "there" for them. So stop saying things you think will help and start doing things like back rubs, get her a spa treatment, hold her etc...

Its not about "fixing" through thought process. Anyway im not an infj much so maybe youll get better insight from one.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Have you tried a bit of socratic questioning? I find sometimes this is just the only way - to show someone that you are listening, helping them and guiding them to their own solutions without seeming critical, etc.

If she is at the brink of insanity, you just have to ask a lot of vague questions that will guide her to her own insights. Sometimes people get lost in their emotions and need to be pulled out subtly.

What's causing you the most stress?
Is there any way to reduce this stress?
Is there anything in your life that you can put aside to deal with the main problems?
What do you need to prioritize right now to make things better?
What do you need or want that you think will help you to feel less stressed?
Do you think taking a break will help?
Do you need some time for yourself or a vacation?
Do you need to share some responsibilities with other people? Is anyone helping you?
Do you need me to do anything for you to help with your situation?

That kind of stuff. It just forces people to look at their circumstances and to recognize their own needs. And if these guided questions about THEM don't work, then something like:

Are other people helping you?
Where are other people falling short? Is there a way to make them more useful?


That kind of garbage. A lot of people don't want to admit that they are their own biggest problem. Sometimes you have to let them point fingers and realize that it's not really others that are the problem so that they can redirect things to themselves.

It's annoying to have to do, but it's usually the best way.

 

[olias]

Ha ha ha. I have learned sometimes its not about fixing things its about simplying being "there" for them. So stop saying things you think will help and start doing things like back rubs, get her a spa treatment, hold her etc...

Its not about "fixing" through thought process. Anyway im not an infj much so maybe youll get better insight from one.

INTJ or not, I'll take good suggestions where I can get it. ;-)

I *know* it's not about fixing things. This is not news to me. But god help me if it's murder for me to keep my mouth shut as she goes on and on about something that is so clearly within her power to change. At first I did just that - kept quiet, offered supportive and empathetic statements. But then this state went on, and part of me said "It's so obvious what's going on here. It's kind of cruel for you not to try to guide her gently to see how she's undermining herself." And that, friends, did not go well. Not because I'm not a skilled speaker, but because holy smoke is she emotionally raw and everything she sees and hears is confirmation of how critical she feels about herself right now.

I can only stay present around that kind of intense, complaining, super negative perspective for so long. I really feel that kind of energy and it makes me tense and really uncomfortable. So out of self preservation I started quietly trying to make some space for myself, which she of course immediately picked up on and catastrophized. So on, so on, the last several weeks have been this cycle of me trying to be quiet and listen, and her interpreting it as withdrawal. Me trying to talk with her, and her taking even the most inoccuous comments as criticism. Me losing my inner serene calm (not angry, just visibly frustrated) at having every word spun into an attack on her. Me deciding that talking is just making things worse, so I go back to not talking and just listening. You get the picture.

Which is the occasion for me stumbling in here. I can't do nothing, I can't do something, and I can't stay in the same space with her without it effecting my own mental and emotional health. I'm at a loss.

 

[muir]

You seem to be looking at the surface behaviours without trying to look at why she might be feeling anxious

Try to figure out why she is anxious

 

[olias]

What are the factors causing her anxiety?

Given she's in full blown inferior Fi meltdown, there are multiple factors and I'm sure I'm not fully aware of all of them. A few I feel confident about:
-She's just a very strong STJ type. Flexible on the E/I, sort of flexible on the T/F. Not *at all* flexible on the SJ. Her strongly expressed SJ is really the core of her problem. That, and in my opinion, she's at the point in her development where she's hitting bottom (like we all do) from over relying on her dominant function, and she's in the early stages of crisis that generally leads to the growth in tertiary and inferior functions. I know it's a normal, healthy thing, but it is painful to watch someone you love go through it.

-She's an ESTJ at a non-profit founded and still run by a very flighty, un-self aware bordering on self absorbed ENT/FP. Her boss is alone at the top, and my ESTJ is number two at the non-profit. She is the only thing that keeps that place from crashing around everyone's head and shoulders. She's been there several years, and this year was really tough on her because of all the extra work she had to/chose to take on. And then, her boss announces out of the blue a couple weeks ago that they were expanding from 3 sites *to anywhere from 5 to 8 sites* with no real plan in place for actually staffing this kind of expansion or doing the other work that will need to happen to be ready by September.

-She needs to quit her job, but she won't. She hates her job, but she won't leave. She's loyal to a fault, and she gives to other people who will take from her without being able to step away in order to maintain healthy boundaries. It is, admitedly a demanding job, and she takes on (and succeeds!) a lot of work. But she also won't every let anyone else experience consequences for their own failures. She always swoops in to keep things running.

-We live in NYC, and her land lady raised the rent for the second year in a row by $250. So, of course, she decided to move out. We decided it was a good time for us to make a next step kind of thing and move in together. Between her inability to relax and let the process of apartment hunting move at it's own pace (we made the decision to move 4 months before the actual end of her lease, yet she immediately jumped into it full throttle, then got frustrated when she couldn't find an apartment), and us working through our own relationship stuff related to moving in, it's been a hard process.

-I travel a lot for work, and sometimes I have to be away for a week or two. She does not handle my absence well. I'm also an INTJ, and she does not handle my need for independence and space well. She's really been trying hard, I give her credit. But it's hard on her in a way that seems disproportionate to the way a typical person might be impacted. With me away for work, she internalizes that she has to "do everything by herself" even though it's clearly not the case. But once she puts her head down and charges forward there is no stopping her.

-We have, honestly, a very good, solid relationship. But we're at the point in our relationship where the fun of our mutual TJ is losing it's appeal and the reality of her strong S and my equally strong N are causing a lot of misunderstanding and friction. We've been working hard at it, and it's been a good, productive process, but it's hard. On top of everything else, an S trying to understand an N is quite taxing. And I will fully admit that, as an INTJ, I am often either not clear with her, or I'm downright unaware of how what I'm trying saying is received by her. It's been hard for me too, trying to understand the mindset of an S, and sometimes I get just as frustrated as she does. She just takes my frustration *much harder* than I take hers (even though she is much more aggressive about it). Nothing special there - it's exactly what you'd expect from an ESTJ and an INTJ.

-I think the last straw was the last couple weeks. We spent the week packing up her apartment, which I did not anticipate would be as hard on her as it was. She just can't handle the disorder of moving, and she froze. And then, she recriminated. But we got through it. We packed the truck on a thursday, unpacked the truck into the new place on a friday, and then I left for a two week work trip on Saturday. It's been on the calendar for months, but she was SO overwhelmed by a house of unpacked boxes she's basically gone into full blown inferior Fi.

I think there's some childhood stuff in there too (her mother is a strong ENFP who was highly positive about her to the public, but very demanding and critical of her in private), and I've discovered that she has anxiety/insecurities about past boyfriends just . . . disappearing. Not breaking up with her, not having a fight. Just one day not saying anything and not ever seeing her again. Which goes a long ways towards explaining the separation anxiety.

What are the things she has identified as being problems and what are the things that you identify as being problems?

She always identifies "those other people" in the moment, but I think inside she knows she's doing it to herself. She so demanding of herself and so critical that when she's self aware about how she undermines herself, it just makes her feel like more of a failure. It's kind of a vicious cycle. I don't know how to help her break that in a way that doesn't suck every ounce of my spirit dry.

You say she is burnt out...through what?

Is there any possibility that you might be the cause of her anxiety in anyway?

See above. I am not the fundamental cause, but our relationship and my challenges as an INTJ are certainly a contributing factor. I'm not blind to that. Being in this relationship has been a very positive, growing experience for me, but it's hard to be the other person (her, not me) when your partner is going through growing pains. Amazingly, we're able to consistently see the core of each other even after a fight, and we both fundamentally trust that our anger is frustration motivated out of feeling powerless towards someone we love, rather than contempt or disrespect or other destructive forces.

Also, y'know - an INTJ and an ESTJ. She had been the irresistible force her entire life. Until she met the immovable object that is an INTJ who's come to a conclusion and has the power of his convictions anchoring him. On the one hand, it's what she needs. On the other hand, it's pretty infuriating in a very primitive way for her to not win at everything, and she's coming to terms with what it means to have met a person who's her equal in many things and in some ways her superior.

Think about all these things and brain storm with a pen and paper...write down your thoughts

I *know* what the dynamic is. That's not the problem. I just don't know what to *do* about it. I have no toolset for a person who's so strongly SJ. All my life skills are for NJ. No exaggeration, we're like bizarro world reflections of each other sometimes. What's good and helpful for me is offensive and insulting to her, and vice versa. I really don't have any experience, insight, or intuition for what's animating her. Jung has been super helpful for understanding her and what's happening. I just don't have any more ideas for trying to find a productive response, and I'm worried that in the process of me trial and error-ing things she's going to run out of energy and be done with it all.

 

[olias]

You seem to be looking at the surface behaviours without trying to look at why she might be feeling anxious

Try to figure out why she is anxious

I think we posted at the same time. See my reply.

BTW, I am incapable of *not* looking behind the surface of things to the fundamental causes. And she hates that right now. She's so strongly Si that I think my Ni really makes her feel naked and vulnerable without me having to say anything. When we first were dating, she commented that I was the first person to really *see* her (i.e. see who she really was, not get caught up in her public facade). Now that she wants to hide and she can't, it's a threatening feeling for her. She wants to protect her true self from me, but at the same time loves me and wants to be with me and wants me with her. She's struggling with the competing drives.

 

[muir]

I *know* what the dynamic is. That's not the problem. I just don't know what to *do* about it. I have no toolset for a person who's so strongly SJ. All my life skills are for NJ. No exaggeration, we're like bizarro world reflections of each other sometimes. What's good and helpful for me is offensive and insulting to her, and vice versa. I really don't have any experience, insight, or intuition for what's animating her. Jung has been super helpful for understanding her and what's happening. I just don't have any more ideas for trying to find a productive response, and I'm worried that in the process of me trial and error-ing things she's going to run out of energy and be done with it all.

It sounds like there is a lot of stressful stuff occuring outwith your relationship

Stress is an energy and it has to go somewhere

I did some training for my job at the time a while back that was related to dealing with conflict situations. We were shown graphs of stress levels (ie adrenaline and cortisol levels) and how a stressful event can occur and even though the person walks away the stress doesn't always subside. In fact if the person dwells on it then it can build and then erupt suddenly and unexpectantly at a future date...which can be hours or even days after the initial triggering event

So these feelings inside us are a form of energy that is like water behind a dam. If the pressures are not released or the cause of the build up not lessened then it can burst through and spill out into our lives in our behaviours in ways that can sometimes be baffling to those around us.

If someone is already very stressed out then their nerves are already pulled very tight. It sounds like your partner is not only over worked but also dealing with moving and all that sort of stuff....so on top of the pressure there is instability

When our nerves are pulled tight or our stress reservoir is high then even the little things take on a greater significance. If a reservoir is full, only a little water is required to then flood over the dam

We see this a lot in modern life where many people are chronically stressed so the little problems that are constantly thrown up in life tip people over the edge: ''the straw that breaks the camels back''

Your partner's standing stress levels are already in the red.....so little things will cause her stress to spill over into what seem like over reactions but which when seen in the wider context of all her problems are just pushing her too far

The move situation is going to settle down in time but the work situation is more complex. if she asks for help from her boss he may develop doubts in her ability and also you never know who he will bring in. If the person he brings in is not compatible with your partner then that might disrupt her workplace dynamic

It's a tough one but it sounds like your good lady needs a bit of a holiday. I know that's not a long term fix but it might just allow her stress levels to dip a bit, allow you guys a chance to have some bonding in a different environment and some distance from her current situation might give her some perspective and insight into her work situation

What do you think? Is a holiday feasible in the near future?

 

[olias]

We've been doing that. We went to VT for a week prior to the move (in anticipation of it being stressful) and we have a weekend at a B&B the weekend after I get back.

These feel like short term solutions though.

 

[muir]

We've been doing that. We went to VT for a week prior to the move (in anticipation of it being stressful) and we have a weekend at a B&B the weekend after I get back.

These feel like short term solutions though.

I can appreciate it's a tough situation

I guess just trying to communicate things out with her is in theory the best route. Perhaps in a place where she is least stressed?