INFJ intelligence

[Auto-Zen]

Hello neighbors!

The descriptions of INFJ's don't seem to do you justice. They accurately describe that you are complex and caring but they don't mention the extent of your intelligence, something I've been noticing recently. It's the reason I came to this forum.
I have a small theory that it's as much a part of your identity as it would be an INTJ, but pointed in a different direction. I'm here to ask if you think that's true, lets call that the thread question.


I linked to this article on my first thread - http://www.annholm.net/2011/11/the-blue-zen-brain-infjintj/

I talked to an INFJ on the subject on INTJ forum. They talked of the state of apophenia, which was their username funnily enough. Apophenia - The perception of connectedness among seemingly unrelated phenomena, seemingly being the word of note. It describes the blue zen state quite well yes? He claimed that INFJ apophenia was less efficient than INTJ apophenia, which I didn't believe. The more he tried to convince me, the less convinced I became, seeing as how his strong argument was making me me see how intelligent he was. It seemed like a question of belief, of hype.

Incoming sweeping generalizations and arrogance...

While the intelligence list usually looks something like this - INTJ, INTP, then ENTP or ENTJ , various others - I think that the list is tied with INTJ/INFJ.

I personally don't give I.Q much weight in the big picture and I think logic, which is the INTP's special area, is not everything, especially from what I've seen of INTP debate and thinking style.

I think the more intangible aspects of the mind; the apophenia, the vision and your grip on reality are more important. I think that is what places the INTJ and the INFJ above the maximum logic of the INTP, that is why the classically smarter INTJ is not actually smarter than INFJ.

 

[Barnabas]

The big thing for INFJs is that while our main way of sorting information may be through Fe we can and usually do have a strong backing with Ti being our tetiary function. Meaning that not only can we deal with the emotional parts of conversation and know how to navigate them without stepping on toes, we can also hold our weight in conversations with more of a focus on fact exchange and logic, not only that but Ni working with Fe and Ti seem to produce a perspective that aren't reached by other intuitives and sensors.

 

[Kgal]

Thanks. I agree. But I could not possibly begin to explain to you why I agree. My problem is I can "see" my vision - and I really can relate to your idea of "connectedness among seemingly unrelated phenomena" - but I cannot find the words to describe what I see/know/grasp/understand.

Hence - the INTJ and I will argue endlessly round and round the same object.
I was married to one for almost 20 years and while I greatly admired and respected his brilliant mind - I gave up trying to explain my point of view. I ended up telling him "I can see and understand your perspective - but you cannot understand mine". Sheesh [shrug]

Why do you bring this up?

Did you see the TED video of Susan Cain explaining the role of Intuitives and how they're better leaders and obtain more productivity than other types?

[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_cain_the_power_of_introverts.html?source=fac ebook#.T1F3xzrTBep.facebook[/video]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->
@<a href="http://www.infjs.com/forums/member.php?u=4383" target="_blank">Ryo</a>
<!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> started a thread on it. http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21218

 

[Auto-Zen]

Why do you bring this up?

Since hearing about the blue zen state I've become quite hypnotized by the consequences of it and what it would mean if it became common accepted knowledge. I think it's very exiting and important for us and so the information found about the other types for them.
The widespread use of brain state analysis regarding personality type could be a very influential part of this century in terms of education for example. If it was known that distinct brain types work in very different ways then education could be completely overhauled for the better, that's just one of the possibilities.
We are in very interesting times, all bets are off for the future. The only guarantee is big change, we need to make sure there is positivity in it rather than the sinister.

Did you see the TED video of Susan Cain explaining the role of Intuitives and how they're better leaders and obtain more productivity than other types?

I haven't, I'll watch it. It's interesting you mention leadership because that is another thing regularly mentioned on the INTJ descriptions that I think INFJ's are totally capable of. I think it's important that INFJ's know the score because it's never been more important that the most capable know they are.

 

[Peppermint]

I believe Ni dominants are always absorbing outside information through their Se, much like Ne dominants would do, but they aren't quite actively engaged in it.The absorbed information piles up in the Ni worldview over a long time period where it forms a clearer image, if nothing else to the person. I think this is how they are generally able to come up with seemingly unrelated conclusions. Ni is the synthesizer of that information.

http://www.intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=276175&postcount=30

 

[Kgal]

Since hearing about the blue zen state I've become quite hypnotized by the consequences of it and what it would mean if it became common accepted knowledge. I think it's very exiting and important for us and so the information found about the other types for them.
The widespread use of brain state analysis regarding personality type could be a very influential part of this century in terms of education for example. If it was known that distinct brain types work in very different ways then education could be completely overhauled for the better, that's just one of the possibilities.
We are in very interesting times, all bets are off for the future. The only guarantee is big change, we need to make sure there is positivity in it rather than the sinister.



I haven't, I'll watch it. It's interesting you mention leadership because that is another thing regularly mentioned on the INTJ descriptions that I think INFJ's are totally capable of. I think it's important that INFJ's know the score because it's never been more important that the most capable know they are.

We are in complete agreement here! :nod:

Hmmm...the blue zen state. Is this a reference to the dario nardo presentation he gave for Google? I watched the majority of it the other day and he mentions a state in the brain where all the regions synchronize together and the color indicated is blue. He called it the Flow State.

 

[Auto-Zen]

Hence - the INTJ and I will argue endlessly round and round the same object.
I was married to one for almost 20 years and while I greatly admired and respected his brilliant mind - I gave up trying to explain my point of view. I ended up telling him "I can see and understand your perspective - but you cannot understand mine". Sheesh [shrug]

I often find language lacking when it comes to communication.
Wouldn't it be nice to have some standard terminology for easier cross type communication? It could be done.
In some languages they have individual words for very subtle things, like meditative states in indian languages or martial arts concepts in chinese. That sort of thing takes a long time to describe in other languages. Our brains basically run on different mental languages, we mash the subtlety of our thoughts into chunky, ill fitting words.

Maybe not for much longer?

 

[Kgal]

I often find language lacking when it comes to communication.
Wouldn't it be nice to have some standard terminology for easier cross type communication? It could be done.
In some languages they have individual words for very subtle things, like meditative states in indian languages or martial arts concepts in chinese. That sort of thing takes a long time to describe in other languages. Our brains basically run on different mental languages, we mash the subtlety of our thoughts into chunky, ill fitting words.

Maybe not for much longer?

It would be nice to be able to mesh languages. In the Eastern thought processes - such as India and China - they are already familiar with the concepts of Flow - Energy - Systems. In general their upbringing is often full of symbols/metaphors/allegories and spiritual access to otherworldly phenomena. I guess I could include the Native Americans from North America in that grouping as well.

But - the Western indoctrination we undergo - especially here in the US - discounts all of those perspectives and we are limited to only "data" and what science (or christian doctrine) tells us.

So yes. I would love it if the English language could encompass Eastern concepts. Alas...as you so eloquently state..."We mash the subtlety of our thoughts into chunky, ill fitting words". Chunky - clunky - and just plain funky....it sucks.

Sigh. Where is Spock when you need him - eh?

 

[Auto-Zen]

Hmmm...the blue zen state. Is this a reference to the dario nardo presentation he gave for Google? I watched the majority of it the other day and he mentions a state in the brain where all the regions synchronize together and the color indicated is blue. He called it the Flow State.

Yes, most people/types achieve this state when they perform a task they have become experts at. Like a musician will be in flow when playing his own music, the dancer of 18 years experience he tested achieved flow when she closed her eyes and imagined dancing...but INFJ's and INTJ's reach flow at the beginning, when we are solving brand new problems, apparently even if that problem is a single question. We also do this when planning the future. We are basically born to solve problems. That also means that our brains operate in a completely alien way to most people and that our thoughts CANT be quickly/easily understood by most people, for now at least. There are other type based brain states too, and general brain states.

Nardi's testing should be recreated with a bigger group and with a super high end machine. If what he's found can be widely spread it could be very important.

 

[theTurtle]

Nice topic [MENTION=5226]Auto-Zen[/MENTION]
I don't think anyone has any complaints about being recognized for their intelligence!

http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/

I've read a ton of descriptions of the INFJ, some good and some a bit wide of the mark, but this one in particular seems to hit home in my opinion. It's what convinced me I was probably an INFJ. I've quoted a short selection that speaks on the points you addressed:

A misconception about INFJs is that because they prefer Feeling they are less likely to be interested in intellectual endeavors. Nothing could be farther from the truth... In fact, they rival and resemble INTs in their level of openness and hunger for new ideas and perspectives. In some regards, they may actually eclipse INTs with regard to intellectual openness, readily appreciating both science and literature, fiction and nonfiction, poetry and prose.

While INFJs are deeply theoretical, they are less impressed by theories built by a mere assemblage of facts or data. Rather than being “fact” oriented, INFJs concern themselves with forging new connections and reconciling opposites by way of their Intuition. They feel that everything is somehow connected to everything else, forming a vast and interconnected web. For INFJs, discovering truth involves getting a better handle on the nature of this connectedness and the holographic patterns of the universe. In fact, this happens to be one of the signature strengths of their Ni, which subconsciously processes and synthesizes copious amounts of information, wraps it up in the form of a symbol or metaphor, and proceeds to upload into the INFJ’s consciousness.

The second paragraph touches on the Apophenia you brought up as well. I think they do a nice job summing it up.

It seems INFJs are a tough group to pigeon-hole into a certain category because they borrow so adeptly from several sources: left-brain, right-brain, head and heart, etc.

In short, we have no weakness. Infallibility feels good. Lol. Jk, of course.

 

[Kgal]

Yes, most people/types achieve this state when they perform a task they have become experts at. Like a musician will be in flow when playing his own music, the dancer of 18 years experience he tested achieved flow when she closed her eyes and imagined dancing...but INFJ's and INTJ's reach flow at the beginning, when we are solving brand new problems, apparently even if that problem is a single question. We also do this when planning the future. We are basically born to solve problems. That also means that our brains operate in a completely alien way to most people and that our thoughts CANT be quickly/easily understood by most people, for now at least. There are other type based brain states too, and general brain states.

Nardi's testing should be recreated with a bigger group and with a super high end machine. If what he's found can be widely spread it could be very important.

??!!??! We do?

No wonder I pause so much when approaching a problem.

In all my years 30+ years of working - no matter what occupation - I have always had the ability to solve the problems within my grasp and improve the process. I experienced high satisfaction from the ability to do that. And I've had a wide range of occupations from chemical engineering to accounting to building houses to running my own agri business to now social work. I have to say - my ex INTJ is quite capable in that department as well. Whenever we could actually agree on something - we were highly successful in the businesses and projects we ran together. I have often told him that he needs to get off his high horse and get out there amongst people. The world needs people like you guys!

Yes. It would be very educational to see Nardi expand his testing.

 

[Auto-Zen]

The world needs people like you guys!

And they need people like you too! Yes INTJ's should be getting around people more, but something will have to happen to make them give a shit. Hopefully very soon, but right now is not the time.

Your IN-J duo does sound like a formula for success.
And how about IS-P duo's or INTP teams? This sort of thing could be standard appraoch for tackling specific problems in industry.

 

[Auto-Zen]

http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/

The second paragraph touches on the Apophenia you brought up as well. I think they do a nice job summing it up.

Very nice. Holographic patterns of the universe! The metaphor/symbol thing is right on it.

 

[Kgal]

Nice topic @Auto-Zen
I don't think anyone has any complaints about being recognized for their intelligence!

http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/

I've read a ton of descriptions of the INFJ, some good and some a bit wide of the mark, but this one in particular seems to hit home in my opinion. It's what convinced me I was probably an INFJ. I've quoted a short selection that speaks on the points you addressed:



The second paragraph touches on the Apophenia you brought up as well. I think they do a nice job summing it up.

It seems INFJs are a tough group to pigeon-hole into a certain category because they borrow so adeptly from several sources: left-brain, right-brain, head and heart, etc.

In short, we have no weakness. Infallibility feels good. Lol. Jk, of course.

Thank you for posting the "personalityjunkie" page. I feel as if they went inside my mind and plucked the words I've been saying my whole life - my thoughts, emotions, and actions - right out of my brain.

 

[James]

I have to say in defence of intjs, when you work with a well adapted "t" type, they are highly effective. My former boss was an intj and his tough mindedness was really a benefit dealing with some very difficult matters.

I always think intjs would make good surgeons as they can detach enough emotionally. I think infjs would be willing to do the same work if necessary, but would be worried about the outcome, family, friends etc. I know some intjs can be arrogant and unfeeling but so can any poorly adapted type.

Perhaps infjs don't always project intelligence, as others notice the caring aspect more?

 

[jyrffw54]

You must read this and tell me what you think, because it made such beautiful sense:

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...6-dario-nardi-s-neuroscience-personality.html

It relates cognitive function usage/combo to different areas of the brain. I found it interesting that apparently Ni dominants use all of their brain regions in sync, even when taking in new information, whereas Si users tend to have different regions of the brain light up when they are in their "area of expertise".

 

[Kgal]

I have to say in defence of intjs, when you work with a well adapted "t" type, they are highly effective. My former boss was an intj and his tough mindedness was really a benefit dealing with some very difficult matters.

I always think intjs would make good surgeons as they can detach enough emotionally. I think infjs would be willing to do the same work if necessary, but would be worried about the outcome, family, friends etc. I know some intjs can be arrogant and unfeeling but so can any poorly adapted type.

Perhaps infjs don't always project intelligence, as others notice the caring aspect more?

Maybe...

I wasn't always so caring, though. For years when in engineering and accounting I was almost a "T" in the way I presented myself to people.

I think it stems back to what Auto-Zen and Peppermint are saying. We "think" differently. I know I do. In my mind are symbols and metaphors and interconnected systems and when I try to present that to most people - using words - it get's lost in the translation. Also....I pause before I answer a question. I think it's because I'm considering multiple paths and all their outcomes before I choose the best answer. To most people I probably appear either "not with it"..."not on top of things"...ignorant... or untrustworthy...as if I were slightly lying. That is - until they get to know me. Then - I suddenly become very smart and I'm the one to go to for all the answers. :tongue:

And yes. I agree with you in that INTJs can be very effective. I have often thought my ex and I would have made better partners if we weren't married. Between his ability to remove emotion from the equation and my ability to see the connections between all things - we often came up with some grand ideas and solutions.

 

[jyrffw54]

Maybe...

I wasn't always so caring, though. For years when in engineering and accounting I was almost a "T" in the way I presented myself to people.

I think it stems back to what Auto-Zen and Peppermint are saying. We "think" differently. I know I do. In my mind are symbols and metaphors and interconnected systems and when I try to present that to most people - using words - it get's lost in the translation. Also....I pause before I answer a question. I think it's because I'm considering multiple paths and all their outcomes before I choose the best answer. To most people I probably appear either "not with it"..."not on top of things"...ignorant... or untrustworthy...as if I were slightly lying. That is - until they get to know me. Then - I suddenly become very smart and I'm the one to go to for all the answers. :tongue:

And yes. I agree with you in that INTJs can be very effective. I have often thought my ex and I would have made better partners if we weren't married. Between his ability to remove emotion from the equation and my ability to see the connections between all things - we often came up with some grand ideas and solutions.

This is the story of my life^

With INTJs/ISTJs, I find that they make excellent study partners because it really adds balance to what we are learning; I can make it memorable for them (if necessary) through analogy, and make them see the big picture from the pieces of knowledge they have hanging around. My ISTJs help me with those excess details I hate dealing with, but that they love for some reason' they plant flowers in my garden of knowledge. INTJs, like [MENTION=2578]Kgal[/MENTION] said are good at "trimming the hedges". It makes for a an effective learning experience.

 

[James]

[MENTION=2578]Kgal[/MENTION] interesting, I'm surprised about the lack of caring though, are you a slight "f" preference or was it the job/situation ? Provided the "t" type is mature and not aggressive without cause I can usually get along fine with them.

[MENTION=2873]Serenity[/MENTION] perhaps I'm being harsh but its poorly adapted sensors I seem to struggle with most. The lack of some degree of integrity or idealism grates with me. Although I want ideas and actions to be practical and work, the corrupt or dishonest always trouble me most. I know this can apply to intuitive people but it seems to be less frequent.

 

[GracieRuth]

I'm not at all convinced that temperament is related to intelligence. I've certainly seen N's say some pretty silly stupid things, and there are S's that are geniuses. Someone with a high IQ is going to be genius at what they are good at, and not too bad at the things they are bad at. Some one who has a low IQ will be moderate at what they are good at, and stink at what they are bad at. At least, that's my running hypothesis. It is true that Introverts quite literally DO think about things more (MRI studies have shown this). However, it doesn't mean their thoughts are rational.

I'll keep my IQ to myself, but in terms of multiple intelligences, I score sky high in music, and very high in logic/reasoning and verbal skills. I score abysmally low in kinesthetic -- I was the kid who could catch the softball.

It is absolutely spot on to say that we think in terms of metaphors and patterns and probabilities. It is a qualitatively different way of processing our perceptions. When I share my thoughts with others, I essentially have to TRANSLATE it into common sense language, because I know if I try to explain my visions, well, people will think I'm a nutter and not have anything to do with me.

In terms of "being in the zone," yeah you are right that I get that at the beginning of learning. It's so exciting. So what happens to me when I actually am at the end, doing something with grace and finesse? I can only say that on those occasions where I've done music in a religious setting, where rehearsal has been so extensive that finally doing it takes no effort at all, I really swing into an altered state that is better than sex or any other pleasure I've ever known. My whole body will quite literally tingle, and afterwards I have a hard time walking a straight line. I remember once a good friend visiting from an Assembly of G-d church said, "You booger, lol, here you are, drunk in the spirit, and you aren't even Pentecostal!" I believe the Sufi's have a term for this: WAJAD.