Imagination and Will Power | INFJ Forum

Imagination and Will Power

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by AUM, Jan 5, 2010.

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  1. AUM

    AUM The Romantic Scientist

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    It seems nowadays that the word "imagination" has gotten a bad rep in our society because it doesn't constitute as something real and achievable. Parents sometimes laugh and/or scorn their children for having a wild imagination and would prefer their kids to spend their time in something more productive.

    However, in my opinion in order to have a will power you have to have an imagination. For example, I set myself a goal of doing excercise to have a healthy figure and wellbeing. In order for me to feel motivated and to have the will power, I have to imagine myself of how I would look like in several months.

    If it wouldn't be for imagination we would still be thinking that the world is flat and that the sun revolves around the Earth. However, if someone states that there are other beings in the universe some people say that's ridiculous. There were some scientists claiming that our Earth is hollow and up to this date they think they are crazy in despite of having proof that a Navy soldier encounter beings far more advanced than we are.

    On the other hand, imagination may work as a bad thing as well. No matter how much will power you have in considering touching a snake, if your imagination is telling you otherwise that the snake will bite you, the consequences could result tragic because imagination will always win, no matter what, in my opinion.

    So I guess my question would be, do you agree that imagination will always outscore will power? Yes or No? And how much imagination should we have in order for us to believe or accomplish something?
     
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  2. Crow

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    I saved a desert rattlesnake once.
    Then I was faced with the question of how to put it down without being bitten.
    I imagined it would be fine, and it was.
    Lucky me.
    As far as I know, the earth is flat.
    It sure looks flat to me.

    Imagination is a useful tool.
    It probably co-exists with willpower.
    Hard to achieve much when you can't even imagine what that achievement might be like.
    Imagine it: fill in the details.
    Work out a map to get you there:
    expend as much energy as it takes to travel the map.

    Imagination is like awareness:
    Someone who doesn't have it, doesn't know what it is.
    And can imagine no particular use for it.
    Willpower is very similar.
    It is usually clearly seen as being lacking in those that lack it.

    How much of either is needed?
    As much as it takes.
     
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    #2 Crow, Jan 5, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  3. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
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    Assuming that imagination and will had different objects (which I don't think they do), they would be the unreal and the real.

    Since the objects are different, they cannot be used as points of reference for measuring acheivement.

    Creating/acheiving much that is not real, cannot be compared to creating/acheiving much that is real.

    However, if one's own satisfaction be used as the yard-stick, one may be far more satisfied with an active imagination, than with exertion of one's will.
     
  4. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    Sometimes it is not enough for me to just imagine it in my head
    I have to write it down, draw and paint it into a picture
    Or collect pictures and items that remind me of it
    Then I'll put them altogether.
    Over days the repetition of seeing all these things, it seems to accumulate an energy inside me and starts to push me
    Eventually I don't need them anymore because it's been impressed in my mind

    Seems it's just like spellcasting




    Do you think visualize and imagine are the same thing?
     
    #4 Top cat, Jan 5, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2010
  5. Crow

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    Who can say?
    Spellcasting is as good a way as any of seeing this.
    My wife is a Hedge Witch.
    She doesn't know she is, but I see her as such.
    She grows things from nothing, and disappears completely into her garden.
    I sometimes can not see her in her garden, until she moves.
    She cooks, cleans, shines, knits, all amazingly well.
    I only met her because I imagined it would be.
    I find imagination to be a wondrous thing.
    Even though I live firmly in the real.
     
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  6. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    She sounds just like me :D Perhaps I am a hedgewitch
    soon I'll have a bigger garden than the one I have now.

    I found a test a long time ago in a book, and I am pretty sure my result was hedge witch.. I forget the names of the other kinds

    I think you can also look at it in a way
    where you live in the imaginary and reality at the same time.
     
  7. Crow

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    What are your plans for the whip in your avatar?
     
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  8. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    Originally intended for protection when exploring alien lands :whip:
    But I don't think I need it anymore


    imagination exercise.
     
  9. Roger

    Roger ...

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    Last Dawn, i can relate you a lot. In short, in many ways.

    See, first of all, who believe to start journey of your success with imagination in your mind is foolishness, i think they are bull shit or completely lost in this world.

    Without imagination you can't set your goal. You can't figure out what you want. You can't be more clear in your own way. Really. It makes more, imagination. Imaginations are like dreams. People misinterpret sometimes dreams and imagination. They don't know they are same thing.

    According to me, i generated one formula for my success imagination=Happiness+wisdom+attitude. This makes sense to me. There are more things on imagination, which still i don't know. In progress of discovering them. :)
     
  10. Roger

    Roger ...

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    It is such a shameful things, people can't take care of their imagination who can see big dreams. Can surmount impossible things in life.

    I feel sadness for such people.
     
  11. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    Intuitives (those who trust and live in their imaginations) can appreciate and understand the need for sensors in society. Sensors have a more difficult time understanding the talents and need for intuitives in society. I call this the negative recipreciation effect.

    What makes the negative recipreciation effect prevalent is that sensors are the vast majority, and the "average Joe" is almost always a sensor...intuitives are "weirdos" of society.


    The real interesting questions about this are going to sound very NT to you guys, but don't reject it right away.

    1) Does it even matter that sensors don't reciprocate appreciation for the intuitive mindset? Can't you still use your intuitive skills to get ahead in the game...just by using a non-linear/non-obvious path?

    2) What are you going to do about the negative recipreciation effect? How do you truly go about convincing those that don't understand instead of just reminding/stimulating those that already do?


    I know INFJs aren't the most action oriented people (neither are INTPs!) but we are creative. Can you think of ways to solve the problems this effect creates?
     
  12. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    I think that depends. Are you in a game? If I was, I'd be the only player.
    My path is personal, it can't involve other competitors.

    I've been in arguments before, but it's easy to stand up for myself when I am against only one person. I usually keep my *ideas* to myself.

    Just do it :tinfoil3:

    Either that or you can work in a team
    It also helps to create inspiration boards.
     
  13. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    I speak in the frame of a capitalistic culture. Intuitives have few linear paths to make careers or even successful lives in capitalism, as the market demand is for sensor goods and employment. But, I'm asking if that is really such a limit...we have unique advantage with our "useless" imaginations. Does it truly limit intuitives or can we prove it wrong.


    Sounds like a recipe for groupthink. :/ Groupthink only happens when dissenters don't speak up or those who have the right answer keep it to themselves. Don't be afraid to voice a helpful perspective!

    So, the question is, do you have any suggestions to break the negative recipreciation effect?

    Although it is good to inspire those that already agree, the problem is that the outside group doesn't acknowledge imagination, creativity, and people that don't conform arbitrarily. Although there are pockets of society that do love these things, the "average joe" lags behind and does not value it, leading to inefficiencies and even injustice/abuse of those that are trapped in that world and don't know that there are other people and groups that value their skillset.
     
    #13 Duty, Jan 6, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  14. Crow

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    A perspective does not need to be "helpful" to be valid.
    Any perspective is part of any interaction.
    One of the flawed concepts in effect on this forum is the assumed "helpfulness" of modifying content to keep it pleasant and harmless.

    I am not prone to this self-censure, but even I have stopped myself before voicing a view that might conceiveably cause ruffled feathers (or worse).

    Be kind. Be thoughtful. But most of all: be true.
     
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  15. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    It's funny, I have to take the time to understand your posts. I read them several times. I wonder if it's because we live in very different worlds and these questions might not really fit in my life. I know what you mean by capitalistic culture but it's not really what I see where I live.
    To be honest I'm only concerned with my own life and don't spend much time thinking about what is going on in the rest of the world, especially to compare myself with it. Even at work, there is no connection to other people. I am in my own bubble. There is no comparison.. And I already have enough on my plate.

    I don't really see the limits you are talking about when you say this part here. Can you give me some examples? Linear paths to make careers, sensor or capitalist goods and employment. Is clothing a sensor good? I think it's for both types.. It's just a way of seeing.

    I'm curious - why are you asking these questions? Are you going through with something in your own life. Are you looking for a career?

    Imagination frees a person. With it you are not bound by memes. But you also need resourcefulness and persistence. I think intuition it's something personal, isn't it. We are more in tune with ourselves, the way we want to live our lives, our values, that is the drive for an intuitive, imo (or INFJ..) It seems humanitarian than capitalist. And the imagination applies much more than to just a career. It's the whole life of a person.

    Oh no it never reaches the point where I go with the crowd. I don't say anything, I am still going my own way. I will stand up when I have the energy, when I'm very angry, but most times it just leaves me exhausted and it lingers for a week or so. It's like a person believing in God and someone comes along and demands they prove that God exists. Is that person really going to prove it? It's just a waste of energy and time. It always depends on the case but if it's something impersonal, like how to solve a problem that occurs at work, then yes most cases I speak up. And if it's something little, I admit I go with the group too.. But I will never have it reach something like how to live my own life, etc. I am the only one who decides those things

    I guess it depends on who you are with. I haven't had a problem with stating my views if I needed to at work. It was already obvious in my work ethic, being able to fix things that needed fixing that the boss had no idea to fix (which were sadly, very obvious to fix), things like that. You just create a reputation for yourself. But you can only take so much and if they are not listening to you and you feel awful, it's wise to leave.
    You asking this sounds like it is happening in your life. It's easier for me to answer to a personal story.

    You have to find like-minded people. You will end up hurting yourself I think.
    If you can't convince the people who are in charge, you are not going to win ...

    Oh there's also a book called How to win friends. I haven't read it but there are a lot of ways to get people on your side. It's manipulation but I think manners and etiquette are the same way. You are not actually doing really awful things.
     
  16. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    Alright, first, my previous posts were written while tabbing in and out at work, so they're probably low quality for me. But I'm home now so I can concentrate. :)

    I come from a lower class family in midwestern America, and although some opportunities have been open to me, my family, community, and what I perceive as the general culture that surrounded me discouraged and even sanctioned me for intuitive behavior, especially intuitive perceiver behavior.

    For a long time I harbored a lot of resentment toward all of these people. They refused (and in many many ways still refuse) to appreciate my unique intuitive talents. I've combed most of that resentment out of me, and instead recognize that those people, and, I think, most of society, does not understand the value of intuitiveness. However, I've noticed that intuitives generally recognize the need for sensors. There just isn't reciprocation of appreciation happening, and I call this the "negative recipreciation effect."


    Out of curiosity, do you come from a place of abundance? As in, are you financially secure? Do you have a stable career you enjoy? Are most of your day to day needs met?


    My major issues in life at the moment are linked to my questions and views, but not in a direct way. Career is in fact a big issue on my mind. I'm currently saving up money to move down to California. From there I want to dual major pure mathematics/??? (cognitive science, psychology, physics, or philosophy go there) at UC Berkeley (or maybe MIT, I just want to stay in California so I have to decide that). Admittedly I'm getting very impatient to kick all that off...I'm currently stuck in a full-time bottom of the ladder data entry job in Alaska that, in reality, I'm WAAAAY overqualified for but way undercertified to do anything else. I need opportunity and I'm itching badly to make it for myself.

    Also, you seem to have the impression that I am surrounded by people that don't understand me, when such is definitely not the case. I have an awesome group of friends (together we form the "barber shop rationals": one each of INTP, ENTP, INTJ, ENTJ). I used to be surrounded by SJs that didn't at all understand or encourage me, but such is no longer the case.

    But my views are for society in general. I've never gotten the impression that sensors appreciate the necessity of intuitives, but I've always gotten the impression that intuitives understand the need for sensors. I was just asking if you or anyone else has any ideas for correcting this, as intuitives are very celebrated in media, but are little more than an annoyance to sensors in real life.
     
  17. Top cat

    Top cat Permanent Fixture

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    Ahh :embarassed: I think I remember you. I forget which thread. You are the one who tells the driver that it would be better to change lanes because the car in front has a driver that has a case of road rage. But your driver doesn't listen and then your'prediction comes true. Stories like that. You are very fortunate to have such abilities :smile:

    It's different for me.. I have got along with several sensors in my day. I think my parents are ESFJ and ISFP. I hope you give me an example of when they don't value an intuitive. If it is anything like the car story, maybe they feel you are being critical/judgmental. They feel you think you know better than them. It makes them feel bad. So it's just a way of changing how you say things, the voice and words, approach. In time it also forms a reputation for you. I remember a quote about men and women. It says to get a man to do what you want, you make him think the idea is his. lol. I hope that helps in some way.

    Yes my day-to-day needs are met, but I still have bills to pay and I'm not working ^^; I've been living off of savings since June. Somehow I am not running out. I'm not going to say that I will. I was actually fantasizing about a data entry job some months ago. I find I'm good at some jobs like that, but I'm on a different journey at the moment... Perhaps I'll send you a PM
     
  18. Duty

    Duty Permanent Fixture

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    I think you have me mistaken for another poster. :p I don't have any spiritual-like abilities I'm aware of. I'm usually recognized as the ultra-rational, often insightful and used to be annoyingly logical/anti-religious. Generally anymore I try hard to be more diplomatic and a lot more open minded about spiritual matters (and in fact have taken up some meditation and am working on "Ni development" techniques).

    Although I appreciate your suggestion, I'm pretty certain that my family just didn't understand nor try to understand my intuitiveness (and I mean intuitiveness as in the MBTI letter: the personalities that generally look for the deeper meaning, are driven toward imagination and intellect, etc). They've gained a lot of respect for me the past year as I've done a LOT of self growth, but they still really don't understand my need to learn, see the deeper meaning, and not conform to arbitrary memes and social norms. It's ok though, I honestly forgive them. They're just not insightful people nor will they ever try to be. Most people are the same and that's ok. :)

    Still, if someone would come along and show me a way to prove to them how advantageous being an intuitive can be I'd be very curious to learn. :)
     
  19. Top cat

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    I tried to answer your question in each post :tinfoil3: haha seems I always miss something

    Perhaps it has to do with introversion also. What you say about not conforming to memes and social norms
    What about telling them exactly the way it is.. You are looking for meaning, knowledge, etc. I am surprised if they don't understand that... Most people I meet are not like this I think, they just don't live their lives this way, but I haven't had a problem getting them to accept my side

    ...although, with family, there aren't really any situations where I have to create a voice for myself. Nobody really knows what I do with my time.

    btw why do you want to show them it's advantageous...
     
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