Friendship and Your Whole Self

[Trifoilum]

I basically just came to a realization that some new acquaintances I made most likely won't accept / are incompatible / won't take well with my self-- the entirety of my self. The present, the past, and the future.

My question is, have you ever had that realization?
Also, how do you feel? What did you do? Do you keep that friendship?

===
I basically just think, "oh well, tough luck." But thinking about it deeper..
1) I probably cannot and shouldn't force them to like, "CHANGE YOURSELF TO ACCEPT MY TOTALITY". And even if I can, that doesn't seem to be a good idea. (and it's a two-way street as well. Do I -dare- to do that with them?)
2) At some point I began to think that it..hurts, the realization that 'oh, they are going to only see a part of me', but isn't that the case in most 'non-intimate' relationships?
3) But at the same time I felt like, hmm, isn't the ideal of a relationship one where you can expose yourself and your self without fear of judgment? (a.k.a, my mind began asking, "should I put my stakes somewhere better?"
4) I am aware that I am putting some significant amount of stakes with this group; I guess this is yet another part of my introversion playing. The ideas of making fair-weathered friendship, especially one made under half-truths and masks and makeups......let's just say I hope this one fares better than those, and apparently my Ni says otherwise.
5) It's not that I can't-- I can play that game very well, the game of 'showing only the parts you want them to see', but at the same time, in cases of friendship, is that even worth it?
6) Although it's not about kindness or compassion-- more intimacy and closeness and vulnerability.

 

[Cornerstone]

I have wondered this but I came to the conclusion that if I were living true to my 'whole self', it would be evident to anyone near me. Some would like it, some would not.

If I am not living it, how exactly is it...me? It is my desire, my potential.

Either your actions will tell a person all they need to know or it doesn't need to be mentioned unless you want it to. That will depend on the relationship.

So, for example, a friend may know I am pro-this or that...because when they say 'what are you doing?', I say 'I am going to a protest'.

They develop their understanding of what kind of person I am based on what they experience of me...not based on what I tell them about myself.

Another example could be in dating. A friend would know what my type is based on who I try to get with. They would know I like women, brunette etc.

The brunette woman, however, may come to know more than the friend because I don't divulge everything about my love life. So my friend knows me as a guy who is pretty private about sex, whilst the woman knows me as a complete freak. Yet, we're talking about the same area of life involving the same people.

If the friend then wants to know what you don't want them to know, either they can decide they don't want to be friends with someone who won't spill the beans about their love life or you decide that you don't want to be friends with a nosey parker. There are different ways of looking at the same thing.

But the long-and-short of it is that a person will not base their opinion of you based on what you tell them about yourself. They'll base it more on what they experience of you.

And if you are doing things that you wouldn't want those closest to you to know about, then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate those things.

The past is only important insomuch as it impedes upon the present, I have experienced this. But each moment is a fresh start and you can begin to take positive action that may make that transition easier...if that makes sense. Talking about things doesn't necessarily fix them. It can be cathartic, but if you behave or feel the same way that you did in the past...it will still be difficult to move on in terms of positive action.

 

[Gaze]

I've been thinking about this recently. There are a few people who were once friends a while back and one who I just recently reconnected with but I am realizing that we are incompatible. It's not their fault. We're just two different people who're on two different wavelengths. Can't force them to accommodate me. I also too often felt I had to suppress too much of myself to have a conversation with them. I want friendships which last with people I feel comfortable with. I can't do that if I have to watch who or how I am when I'm around someone. So, I think I'm coming to terms with letting them go. If you want to be comfortable being yourself, then this may mean limiting how many people you know and developing less but more closer friendships with people who don't require so much compromise to truly be friends.

 

[Trifoilum]

I have wondered this but I came to the conclusion that if I were living true to my 'whole self', it would be evident to anyone near me. Some would like it, some would not.

If I am not living it, how exactly is it...me? It is my desire, my potential.

Either your actions will tell a person all they need to know or it doesn't need to be mentioned unless you want it to. That will depend on the relationship.

So, for example, a friend may know I am pro-this or that...because when they say 'what are you doing?', I say 'I am going to a protest'.

They develop their understanding of what kind of person I am based on what they experience of me...not based on what I tell them about myself.

This is beautiful, Cornerstone; thank you. ;__;
Yes, you raised great points; from our actions themselves, an image of ourselves will be etched; whether it's by showing or by telling.
I guess sometimes showing is better than telling, but then we have those relationships were people begin to project their own expectations and wishes to wordless behaviors, and it sucks.
At the same time, yeah, is telling them any better? After all, what we tell and what is true may not be congruent at all times.
This is sort of like-- whose truth are we letting to show in ourselves? Our truths? Or their truths?

Another example could be in dating. A friend would know what my type is based on who I try to get with. They would know I like women, brunette etc.

The brunette woman, however, may come to know more than the friend because I don't divulge everything about my love life. So my friend knows me as a guy who is pretty private about sex, whilst the woman knows me as a complete freak. Yet, we're talking about the same area of life involving the same people.

If the friend then wants to know what you don't want them to know, either they can decide they don't want to be friends with someone who won't spill the beans about their love life or you decide that you don't want to be friends with a nosey parker. There are different ways of looking at the same thing.

But the long-and-short of it is that a person will not base their opinion of you based on what you tell them about yourself. They'll base it more on what they experience of you.

Yep, there's that as well. Our limited perspective will net a different understanding, even when we have been nothing but truthful.
Context played a role. Circumstances played a role. It's not just-- how we act, or why we act.
Affection and appreciation are somewhat complex, when you look at it deeply.

And if you are doing things that you wouldn't want those closest to you to know about, then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate those things.

The past is only important insomuch as it impedes upon the present, I have experienced this. But each moment is a fresh start and you can begin to take positive action that may make that transition easier...if that makes sense. Talking about things doesn't necessarily fix them. It can be cathartic, but if you behave or feel the same way that you did in the past...it will still be difficult to move on in terms of positive action.

Touche.
There are two parts in this; personally speaking for example, is whether if I have things I don't want them to know about, or whether if I have things I want them to know MORE. Image crafting, more or less. hiding the flaws, accentuating the goods.

Trying not to do that is quite hard, I feel...? At the same time trying to be careful is also a bit difficult.

And that is true in regards to past experiences and traumas, and moving on. I'm afraid I'm talking about, say, how my past created part of my identity. For instance, me being an INFJ, or being sexually attracted to males.
In homosexual community, there are terms like 're-entering the closet', wherein one again, hides part of their identity for certain reasons. Mostly self-preservation.

It's humane, it's understandable, but that doesn't make it any less sad.

I've been thinking about this recently. There are a few people who were once friends a while back and one who I just recently reconnected with but I am realizing that we are incompatible. It's not their fault. We're just two different people who're on two different wavelengths. Can't force them to accommodate me.

Oh wow, reconnecting about people-- I didn't even think about that; while it's indeed an important aspect of this topic. We grow, and sometimes we come to be together; other times, apart. And sometimes when we meet people after so many times, the difference between us and them gets so very stark it's almost tragic-- the way we changed, the way they changed, or even the way both parties -don't- change.

There were times when I felt or I see people felt that changes that drifted people apart are bad changes, but are they?

I also too often felt I had to suppress too much of myself to have a conversation with them. I want friendships which last with people I feel comfortable with. I can't do that if I have to watch who or how I am when I'm around someone. So, I think I'm coming to terms with letting them go. If you want to be comfortable being yourself, then this may mean limiting how many people you know and developing less but more closer friendships with people who don't require so much compromise to truly be friends.

And exactly, re: friendship with people I feel comfortable with. I can be or act polite, compassionate, caring, understanding. Comfort and intimacy for me is related to how much I expose myself; how vulnerable I can appear in front of them; how much of my fucked-up ness I can expose, talk, discuss with them.

It seems your choice is to let them go. Here's wishing all the very best for you. Personally, I have done that with people I disagreed with-- people whose minds are unsuitable with mine. But with people whose minds I like but whose hearts doesn't seem to fit with me....it's a different case. I feel like there was already -a- connection, even if it's not -the- connection I'm looking for?

(Maybe I feel compromising, settling? hmm.)

 

[barbad0s]

I feel this way about pretty much everyone I've ever met (especially IRL). What I feel about it is that it's partially my fault for being hard to deal with, having sides of me that most people would find awkward to encounter, and sides that I have too much difficulty being vulnerable with. I feel that true friendship is hard to come by, but one should still try their hardest with those people they feel they have potential with in spite of it, and constantly keep pursuing people and environments that resonate with their whole selves. I also feel that a whole self is probably never going to be understood by any one person in life... that's just how it is. Nobody can see it all. My life is like an ocean of superficial friendships that seemed to have potential, and people coming and drifting away is the natural course I let things take.

 

[LucyJr]

I think this is the part were INFJs are seen as naive. We search for meaning in every little thing, and we always think: "Was this discussion meaningful? Is this relation meaningful?"
But I simplified things in the last time. Instead of seeing it as "they don't see my whole self", I kind of say this: "I'm protecting myself. The true me will be shown only to some people..."And I don't feel like I'm a hypocrite because I really protect myself. Some people worth the trust, worth the whole me, others worth only a side of me, others...well, for others its nasty.

 

[Trifoilum]

I feel this way about pretty much everyone I've ever met (especially IRL). What I feel about it is that it's partially my fault for being hard to deal with, having sides of me that most people would find awkward to encounter, and sides that I have too much difficulty being vulnerable with. I feel that true friendship is hard to come by, but one should still try their hardest with those people they feel they have potential with in spite of it, and constantly keep pursuing people and environments that resonate with their whole selves. I also feel that a whole self is probably never going to be understood by any one person in life... that's just how it is. Nobody can see it all. My life is like an ocean of superficial friendships that seemed to have potential, and people coming and drifting away is the natural course I let things take.

*hugs niff* Yep, that's also my experience.
As much as I try to aspire to that ideal of 'true friendship', I feel like "hey, maybe asking for that is unrealistic." Like you said, a whole self is probably never going to be understood by one person in life (and those who had or did, bless you. No seriously BLESS THEE).
But at the same time, I feel like, "BUT I ONLY ASKED FOR HALF OF IT ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?"

And the meaning behind 'try their hardest with those people they feel they have potential with in spite of it' is something I have always pondered.
At what point do we change not for our own sake, but for the sake of the budding relationship, if you get what I mean?

A lot of people do drift. Like a piece of wood, drifting in the swift current that is life.
I begin to wonder which was the stupid(er) option; to drift or to stay.

I think this is the part were INFJs are seen as naive. We search for meaning in every little thing, and we always think: "Was this discussion meaningful? Is this relation meaningful?"
But I simplified things in the last time. Instead of seeing it as "they don't see my whole self", I kind of say this: "I'm protecting myself. The true me will be shown only to some people..."And I don't feel like I'm a hypocrite because I really protect myself. Some people worth the trust, worth the whole me, others worth only a side of me, others...well, for others its nasty.

I don't know. I mean, I used to think like you.
I understand that those type of thinking aren't coming unprovoked. Whether it's the pain of heartbreaks, or the drought of abuse, or even emotional manipulation; it hurts to see and feel your vulnerability being abused, the heart trampled.
Then day by day, month by month, I see people come and go, and few ever tried to enter, none had succeeded, none ever stayed for long.
And....what was supposed to be pure becomes barren instead; and what was supposed to be a method of protection becomes a method of self-bondage.

It's not about hypocrisy, I think.

 

[LucyJr]

I don't know. I mean, I used to think like you.
I understand that those type of thinking aren't coming unprovoked. Whether it's the pain of heartbreaks, or the drought of abuse, or even emotional manipulation; it hurts to see and feel your vulnerability being abused, the heart trampled.
Then day by day, month by month, I see people come and go, and few ever tried to enter, none had succeeded, none ever stayed for long.
And....what was supposed to be pure becomes barren instead; and what was supposed to be a method of protection becomes a method of self-bondage.

It's not about hypocrisy, I think.

Hmm...but to me it's a completly different problem. By protecting myself, I don't mean that I become even more idealistic in my ideal self. It's exactly the opposite: I'm lowering my expectations from people. I don't expect to be understood, because people don't even understand themselfs. If I don't have expectations, I won't be hurt. It's as simple as that.
As for the other side of the problem, people accepting me, I'm very much with [MENTION=5559]Cornerstone[/MENTION] here. I myself I'm responsible for that. I stay true to myself. Doing that, I will prorities my relations with people.

 

[Gaze]

It seems your choice is to let them go. Here's wishing all the very best for you. Personally, I have done that with people I disagreed with-- people whose minds are unsuitable with mine. But with people whose minds I like but whose hearts doesn't seem to fit with me....it's a different case. I feel like there was already -a- connection, even if it's not -the- connection I'm looking for?

(Maybe I feel compromising, settling? hmm.)

For me, it's less about simple disagreements. It's years of realizing that even though you may try to make something work or fit, it doesn't. So, you become more realistic and realize when you need to let things go. If you don't, it can harbor resentment. So, it's less about not trying to make it work, but realizing when it doesn't and learning to move on. Beyond connection, there needs to be some willingness to reciprocate on both ends. If the give and take is one sided, it's very tough to maintain a close friendship or relationship. Sometimes, things just need to end. Life goes on.

 

[Trifoilum]

Hmm...but to me it's a completly different problem. By protecting myself, I don't mean that I become even more idealistic in my ideal self. It's exactly the opposite: I'm lowering my expectations from people. I don't expect to be understood, because people don't even understand themselfs. If I don't have expectations, I won't be hurt. It's as simple as that.
As for the other side of the problem, people accepting me, I'm very much with @Cornerstone here. I myself I'm responsible for that. I stay true to myself. Doing that, I will prorities my relations with people.

Ah, thanks for clarifying.
I'm also lowering my expectations from people-- as I stated above, asking for them to like, change themselves to accomodate for me doesn't seem kind nor wise at all.
it's not about hurting. It doesn't hurt much-- rejection, abuse, broken pedestal, being manipulated-- those are much more hurtful than this.

However, meaningful is another matter. Meaning is separate from pain.

It's perhaps as you said in the first post; a bit of naivety.

And I think for me, myself, the problem is assuming that meaning is gained via validation, approval. Which.....I think my experience had proven that the belief is at best flawed, but it still tasted sweet.

 

[Trifoilum]

For me, it's less about simple disagreements. It's years of realizing that even though you may try to make something work or fit, it doesn't. So, you become more realistic and realize when you need to let things go. If you don't, it can harbor resentment. So, it's less about not trying to make it work, but realizing when it doesn't and learning to move on. Beyond connection, there needs to be some willingness to reciprocate on both ends. If the give and take is one sided, it's very tough to maintain a close friendship or relationship. Sometimes, things just need to end. Life goes on.

That's an excellent difference.

Personally? I've experienced both. ultimately it did feel...different, in some ways sadder, in another ways less so.
And reciprocation was indeed important in a relationship; but I dunno in this case. I found it somewhat unreasonable to say that they HAVE TO like all of me, but to -actually- experience that was another matter.

There's after all a difference between a reaction and a reply.

 

[LucyJr]

However, meaningful is another matter. Meaning is separate from pain.

It's perhaps as you said in the first post; a bit of naivety.

And I think for me, myself, the problem is assuming that meaning is gained via validation, approval. Which.....I think my experience had proven that the belief is at best flawed, but it still tasted sweet.

You know, I don't think is naivety...so much as it is insisting on that naivety...if this makes any sense. It's nothing bad in being an idealist, and I know many people think idealism is sillyness, but I don't think so. I think they are being silly actually.

 

[Gaze]

That's an excellent difference.

Personally? I've experienced both. ultimately it did feel...different, in some ways sadder, in another ways less so.
And reciprocation was indeed important in a relationship; but I dunno in this case. I found it somewhat unreasonable to say that they HAVE TO like all of me, but to -actually- experience that was another matter.

There's after all a difference between a reaction and a reply.

I think I should have clarified this earlier but I don't expect everyone including friends to like all of me. That's not how I judge friendship. It's not about complete approval but acceptance. This means, I would expect to feel comfortable relaying who I am to them, without feeling that I would have to suppress or deny too much of myself to be friends. To expect to like everything about someone is probably a little unrealistic. It's more that I would want understanding and appreciation of those differences without each person feeling they have to compromise too much of who they are. It's learning how to strike a balance without having to give up too much of yourself to please someone else. This however, doesn't mean you wouldn't be willing to give and take.

 

[Trifoilum]

You know, I don't think is naivety...so much as it is insisting on that naivety...if this makes any sense. It's nothing bad in being an idealist, and I know many people think idealism is sillyness, but I don't think so. I think they are being silly actually.

That is heartening. I do feel it's an idealism that's worth holding, but sometimes I felt like...will it ever get fulfilled? :|
But yes, I agreed that the other parties may have been the silly ones.

I think I should have clarified this earlier but I don't expect everyone including friends to like all of me. That's not how I judge friendship. It's not about complete approval but acceptance. This means, I would expect to feel comfortable relaying who I am to them, without feeling that I would have to suppress or deny too much of myself to be friends. To expect to like everything about someone is probably a little unrealistic. It's more that I would want understanding and appreciation of those differences without each person feeling they have to compromise too much of who they are. It's learning how to strike a balance without having to give up too much of yourself to please someone else. This however, doesn't mean you wouldn't be willing to give and take.

I admit I still find trouble separating approval and acceptance. What are their differences?
I also admit that I'm still having that black-white thinking that "if they don't like A, they must hate A"-- missing the option of neutrality, ignorance, or just plain 'whatever'.
I agree, it's about balance, about learning, about boundaries and enforcing them; about giving and taking while still respecting and being kind to yourself and the other party.

 

[Trifoilum]

I'm sort of thinking a corollary (or I guess thinking about things further);

how long (or how fast) do you feel "oh, I can show my whole self" to others without feeling "hmm, I feel like this is overreaching / oversharing / potentially unsavory"?

expectations, expectations.

I'm still sort of sad that it's becoming clearer that the differences are...getting starker.
Fundamental beliefs, I'm afraid. Something I can accept..if I kept quiet, and keeping quiet hasn't been a favorite of mine lately.
So I keep my distance.

But at the same time-- it's like, only for a short time. Few months?
Like, -I- would not reveal myself entirely in like, 2-3 months. NO WAI. (in that aspect, I'm being somewhat unfair and impatient in expecting others to accept me THAT FAST)
As in, the depths of my thoughts, perspective, feelings, emotions, beliefs;
how strongly and why and what is related.
At least not about my personal stuff.
(I tried. It...didn't end quite well. So far I try to allude, but that's a long game to play)

At the same time I felt like some people are just too incompatible--
even after years I still feel unsafe revealing myself to some of them.

Others aren't (I consider this forum to be quite......well, I'm quite open here). But aside from this forum...the last close relationships I have sort of fizzled.

Then I began to wonder; do I want companionship; or am I just felt constrained?
Thinking about what Cornerstone said up above.

But the long-and-short of it is that a person will not base their opinion of you based on what you tell them about yourself. They'll base it more on what they experience of you.

And if you are doing things that you wouldn't want those closest to you to know about, then perhaps it is time to re-evaluate those things.

I'm sort of confused (lack of sleep, yay!);
am I freer to express myself to those who weren't close, or to those who were close? (really, I can make a case for both*)

*) And really, the reality may be more complex than that. Order and method matters in terms of image presentation and..

 

[kakeli]

I can hardly be the real me around myself without snapping. How am I supposed to be it around other people?

 

[Trifoilum]

I can hardly be the real me around myself without snapping. How am I supposed to be it around other people?

That is.....a somewhat complex matter, I think. Why would you snap when you're being 'the real you'?

 

[knight in battle]

1) I probably cannot and shouldn't force them to like, "CHANGE YOURSELF TO ACCEPT MY TOTALITY". And even if I can, that doesn't seem to be a good idea. (and it's a two-way street as well. Do I -dare- to do that with them?)
2) At some point I began to think that it..hurts, the realization that 'oh, they are going to only see a part of me', but isn't that the case in most 'non-intimate' relationships?
3) But at the same time I felt like, hmm, isn't the ideal of a relationship one where you can expose yourself and your self without fear of judgment? (a.k.a, my mind began asking, "should I put my stakes somewhere better?"

A1) I've often tried to change someone's views or acceptance of me. Some people seem so close to accepting all of who I am, yet they fall short of that. This is somewhat of a flawed perspective for me, of course, because it's probably I who don't accept all of who I am. However, it still stands that, even when I didn't accept myself fully, there were people who I felt fully accepted who I am; i.e., I feel very free around them even when I don't feel free with myself around 99% of my acquaintances and friends.

A2) That's an interesting point. This is the middle ground where acquaintances become friends or intimate friends or remain acquaintances. With non-intimate friends, it often becomes clear within a matter of minutes, weeks, or months whether I have an innate trust of someone. If there is that innate trust, then it's just a matter of time before someone knows all of me, even though it's not all at once.

A3) I can definitely attest to the existence of relationships where there is no fear of judgment. There are also those who come really close to that ideal, but not quite. The relationships where there is no fear of judgment are far and few in between, but I've met a few over the years. And this means of course that there are a ton of people I've had to put fewer stakes on, because, as close as they seem to becoming safe people who don't trigger a fear of judgment, they are not the ones.