[PAX] - Explain patriotism, please. | INFJ Forum

[PAX] Explain patriotism, please.

Soulful

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Nov 18, 2008
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Why do people care so much about "their" country?

As someone who was born in one continent then relocated to another at the tender period of relatively early childhood, and has not ever been able to fully consider either one as home, I do not quite grasp this sentiment.

Can someone explain the experience, ideology(ies), and feelings behind feeling protective of "their" country? Does this also mean the needs of "your" country supersede or are superior to the needs of other people who do not belong to, or are not members of, "your" country? Aren't we just people, everywhere, having adopted a way of living, with some shared and some different needs and preferences, all going about the business of being alive because we've been born without explanation?
 
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I've lived in one country my entire life and I don't get it either.
 
USA-USA.jpg


Being proud of your national heritage. In and of itself, I find nothing wrong with it until people start looking down on others because of it, or when they get offended if you remind them of things that aren't so great about that given country.
 
I cannot answer your question in its entirety but I will contribute some of my thoughts to this subject.

First, I do understand your puzzlement at this because I think I could live in England or Australia or some other English speaking country that was relatively free and feel comfortable, I think.

Ok, with that being said, here are my thoughts: What you are talking about is Nationalism which is patriotism in the extreme.

What causes Nationalism? I think there are multiple causes but a few are this: 1. People believe that their political ideology is superior to that of other nations and cultures. For example, Americans are taught from kindergarten that Democracy is the greatest way of life and we are "Free" and other people do not have the same freedoms we have. So, if you never travel outside of America and only watch American news, you would think that we are privileged and the envy and center of the world. Once, however, you travel outside America, you realize other people in other countries are happy too - and free too! You also realize America is not the center of everyone's attention. So, to keep this brief, nationalism is bred from a sense of superior political ideological beliefs and the desire to "evangelize" and "convert" the rest of the world to your "happy" and "superior" way of life.

The second thing that I think causes it is people's need to belong and to feel like they are part of something. Take, for instance, this INFJ forum - why are people here? Because they want to interact and belong to a group that has similar shared characteristics, values and traits (well, maybe the values are all across the spectrum but there is still a sense of "sharedness" with others that brings them here - Except for @Ubberago, he just has a thing for INFJ females! : - ). There is, of course, nothing wrong with wanting to belong to a group of people, a club, a culture or a way of life but, once that group starts to think they are somehow superior to other groups, then cliques and troubles can form. Think about High School, it happened there - the jocks, the intellectuals, the nerds, the dope heads, the squares, etc... For whatever reason, humans seem drawn to groups and to feeling like they are part of something.

Thirdly, Culture plays a part of it too. I used to think culture was not too big of a deal until I tried to fit in with the Coptic Culture (Egyptian Christians). They (the Copts) are beautiful people but my American culture and their Egyptian culture really did separate us. Not intentionally but it did nevertheless. For example, I do not have anything against Muslims but they (the Copts and Muslims) fought like cats and dogs - I, as an American, had trouble understanding this long standing animosity they hold towards one another but they do. So I think culture can separate people and, when people begin to think their culture is superior, then that causes problems.

Finally, the will to power, to dominate and to consume finite resources cause nationalism too. For whatever reason, there is always a group of people in every nation who are willing to walk all over anyone else in order to gain material comfort and luxuries. Money and luxury can corrupt humans into thinking that things are more important that other humans and they will do whatever is required to secure the things they want and that can breed nationalism.

Those are just a few of my thoughts.

I am looking forward to hearing others thoughts on this interesting subject as well.
 
I don't think patriotism is all that great, really, and am generally against too much nationalism, but personally what I truly don't understand, is when people hate one country soooooo much they obsess over it, and blame that country when anyone anywhere gets so much as a hangnail, rather than focusing on their own internal problems and incompetent or corrupt governments.

That is like reverse nationalism, and is simply crazy.

Most problems can be solved internally, and leaders often deflect criticism of themselves by blaming the "other", be it a country or a religious group, or an ethnic minority, or whatever. It's a common tactic and it works, unfortunately, because it makes people think: "OH, those other people over there are the cause of all our problems. Let's kill them, 'k, or riot a little. That'll fix everything."

Rabid patriots and anti-patriots have one thing in common, and that's bigotry.
That, to me, is very frightening.
 
The action of defining yourself as a national (or ethnicity/race/color/ect) is a violent act by nature. I don't get it either.
 
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I lump patriotism in with religiosity personally. I think its essentially the same reasoning for most people who blindly follow something and don't question its validity. A lot of it comes down to different reasons for different folks of course, but I am speaking to mostly the people born and raised here who never had to deal with living under an oppressive regime like say Iraq under Saddam or North Korea. Most people are programmed to accept certain views from their upbringing. God is good, USA USA USA, kitties are cute, you should get married, you must have children, so on and so forth. Most people are unable to question these inherited beliefs because either they lack the ability to reason it out and by that I mean that their rational mind is not strong enough to overcome the evolutionary programming that makes us believe what our parents and society tells us as children which we then protect and defend as we go through life. Think about it, how many of you have ever stuck your hand on the stove top? I have personally, only a fingertip I admit, and it fucking hurt. But I was a rebellious child. Most people dont though, why? Because mommy says not to. Mommy says it will burn you. Well... yeah mommy happens to be right in that case, but the kids dont know that, they cannot reason it out. But evolution has programmed us to accept that kind of information up front without testing, because kids cant test, and the kids who DO test tend to blow themselves up or die at a much higher rate than the kids who just follow the conventional wisdom.

Thats my take on it anyway.
 
USA-USA.jpg


Being proud of your national heritage. In and of itself, I find nothing wrong with it until people start looking down on others because of it, or when they get offended if you remind them of things that aren't so great about that given country.

Fair enough.

That dude in the photo. When you look at him, is there anything neutral about that image? Can you really be that proud of your country without experiencing a sense of arrogance or egocentrism about your identity and/or your roots?
 
Fair enough.

That dude in the photo. When you look at him, is there anything neutral about that image? Can you really be that proud of your country without experiencing a sense of arrogance or egocentrism about your identity and/or your roots?

Idk, he looks kind of ridiculous and happy. I could picture him looking exactly the same dressed in a gorilla suit on Halloween. As for the latter questions, I guess you'd have to ask him. I don't consider myself a patriot.
 
Thanks for taking the time to structure such a detailed response. I think you raise interesting points..

I cannot answer your question in its entirety but I will contribute some of my thoughts to this subject. First, I do understand your puzzlement at this because I think I could live in England or Australia or some other English speaking country that was relatively free and feel comfortable, I think.

Do you think that may be due to a shared culture, shared politics, and shared language? How about somewhere entirely foreign to you?

For example, Americans are taught from kindergarten that Democracy is the greatest way of life and we are "Free" and other people do not have the same freedoms we have. So, if you never travel outside of America and only watch American news, you would think that we are privileged and the envy and center of the world. Once, however, you travel outside America, you realize other people in other countries are happy too - and free too! You also realize America is not the center of everyone's attention. So, to keep this brief, nationalism is bred from a sense of superior political ideological beliefs and the desire to "evangelize" and "convert" the rest of the world to your "happy" and "superior" way of life.

I'm so sorry if this part will be offensive to anyone, but if I'm going to be honest, this is one of the sickest things I have read. (I realize you're not stating this as your opinion, Patrick.)

This "our way is the best way" and "we are free" rhetoric is truly frightening and sickening.

To add to that, no one, no country, no thing, nothing is the centre of everyone's attention. The mere belief is problematic and raises a red flag. What does it say about people who are unable to see this?

I almost laughed out loud reading the part about envy. Ironically, it sounds like what we hear about North Korea.

The second thing that I think causes it is people's need to belong and to feel like they are part of something. Take, for instance, this INFJ forum - why are people here? Because they want to interact and belong to a group that has similar shared characteristics, values and traits (well, maybe the values are all across the spectrum but there is still a sense of "sharedness" with others that brings them here - Except for @Ubberago, he just has a thing for INFJ females! : - ). There is, of course, nothing wrong with wanting to belong to a group of people, a club, a culture or a way of life but, once that group starts to think they are somehow superior to other groups, then cliques and troubles can form. Think about High School, it happened there - the jocks, the intellectuals, the nerds, the dope heads, the squares, etc... For whatever reason, humans seem drawn to groups and to feeling like they are part of something.

It's interesting that people seek this externally to themselves instead of within themselves, through an acceptance of our inherent humanity and membership within this universe.

I understand the feeling of comfort derived from a sense of belonging... but I guess I don't understand needing to stretch that belonging as far as nationalism or patriotism.

Thirdly, Culture plays a part of it too. I used to think culture was not too big of a deal until I tried to fit in with the Coptic Culture (Egyptian Christians). They (the Copts) are beautiful people but my American culture and their Egyptian culture really did separate us. Not intentionally but it did nevertheless. For example, I do not have anything against Muslims but they (the Copts and Muslims) fought like cats and dogs - I, as an American, had trouble understanding this long standing animosity they hold towards one another but they do. So I think culture can separate people and, when people begin to think their culture is superior, then that causes problems.

Yeah, I hear you. I sometimes worry about my own take on culture, given that I strive to be open-minded and welcoming of diversity, yet I've come to the conclusion that not everyone will get along. That there will be rifts among cultures that may not be bridged, and it is likely we won't understand much about other cultures and about one another, but in no way does this necessitate disrespect or inhumanity toward others. A healthy curiosity, a desire to express mutual respect, appreciation, and support of one another is essential.

Finally, the will to power, to dominate and to consume finite resources cause nationalism too. For whatever reason, there is always a group of people in every nation who are willing to walk all over anyone else in order to gain material comfort and luxuries. Money and luxury can corrupt humans into thinking that things are more important that other humans and they will do whatever is required to secure the things they want and that can breed nationalism.

Yeah, the corrupt often seek power. I think access to money and luxury allows for circumstances that reveal a lack of integrity and social conscience. So I'm of the thought that money is not more powerful than who we are so much so that it has the means to change who we are, but if we lack inner power (integrity) then money will facilitate our ability to act without integrity and will reveal that inner nature. Do you know what I mean?

I think it is fear that drives people to corruption. The panic over survival and the inherent vulnerability of being human that perhaps leads people to prioritize their needs above those of others. Few people can act alone, though. So governments and politics become a means through which to widen one's reach and build a base from which to act in one's interests. Isn't this what happened with the U.S. in the 1960s or so?

Those are just a few of my thoughts.

I am looking forward to hearing others thoughts on this interesting subject as well.[/QUOTE]
 
Why do people care so much about "their" country?

As someone who was born in one continent then relocated to another at the tender period of relatively early childhood, and has not ever been able to fully consider either one as home, I do not quite grasp this sentiment.

Can someone explain the experience, ideology(ies), and feelings behind feeling protective of "their" country? Does this also mean the needs of "your" country supersede or are superior to the needs of other people who do not belong to, or are not members of, "your" country? Aren't we just people, everywhere, having adopted a way of living, with some shared and some different needs and preferences, all going about the business of being alive because we've been born without explanation?

You might like these song lyrics then: "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world, then the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled."

I lived in NY after the 9/11 "attacks" and saw hundreds of otherwise bland houses, display the American Flag on their doorsteps. Those people didn't want to hear any alternative theory, or any hint that America may have promoted the attacks, intentionally or not. They didn't want to hear about the American-caused violence in the Middle East, arms sales to Israel, and former support of these people who were now our enemies. For them, the love for their country blinded them to everything else and to the factual history that led up to that date.

They acted no better than a parent who would decide to punch their child and land them in the hospital with brain damage, because their child slaps them. This was the exact same type of overreaction these people had to the 9/11 situation... and all in the name of Patriotism.

I could be happily transplanted to another country in the world and be happy there. I'd gladly learn the cultures, language, etc. even if it was in a 3rd World environment. Why people want to take pride in a piece of dirt simply because their "pappy" did and their "grand pappy" before that did, is beyond me.

Patriotism is just another form of attachment and the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism teach about the suffering of attachment. It couldn't be displayed any clearer than it is in people waving flags in the street...
 
Why people want to take pride in a piece of dirt simply because their "pappy" did and their "grand pappy" before that did, is beyond me.

Exactly! That's why all those Palestinians fighting over a piece of dirt owned by their "grandpappy" and waving flags should just STFU, right? They need to go all Budhist and stop having attachments.

(just kidding. merely pointing out inconsistencies, that's all)

Attacks on people's homes will always bring out some form of patriotism. Doesn't matter where, doesn't matter who.
 
It's probably about the comfort of shared cultural assumptions. Or an extended version of affection for your hometown.
 
Some people are most proud of what they didn't earn; these people are often following their cultural programming because they are not operating on a conscious level; they lack the perceptual awareness to realise how small they are making their own reality tunnel
 
Some people are most proud of what they didn't earn; these people are often following their cultural programming because they are not operating on a conscious level; they lack the perceptual awareness to realise how small they are making their own reality tunnel

this. the only analogy i could thing of (and it's not a full-fledged one) is that of a family. Even though a child did nothing on their own to earn their place in the family, they still love and and are devoted to it. (Ceteris paribus, ideālis (ideally))
[MENTION=407]oceanbreeze[/MENTION] where is your dual citizenship?
 
this. the only analogy i could thing of (and it's not a full-fledged one) is that of a family. Even though a child did nothing on their own to earn their place in the family, they still love and and are devoted to it. (Ceteris paribus, ideālis (ideally))
@oceanbreeze where is your dual citizenship?
poland and canada. why?
 
Patriotism is a conditioned feeling that in my opinion arises from the interplay of several factors:


Familiarity with the place of living. Emotional attachment to the land, nurtured by experiences that took place on it. Association. Safety in the known.

Shared values or the perception that there is a shared set of national values among the majority. These values are often based on the past, instilled through the family or independent study.

Glorification of the past. The belief in a glorious past filled with notable heroic people from ones country/ethnicity that did great deeds, defeated enemies, made significant discoveries and inventions, and Identification with this greatness. There's also to a a degree identification with conflicts, which leads to grudges toward people of a certain ethnicity that happened to be at war with theirs in the past.

Tribalism. The desire for communion over like minded people that share values. The desire to belong somewhere, to be part of something greater than themselves, something lasting, like ethnic heritage. Hence you see Americans who trumpet about their European heritages.

Feeling threatened. Nationalism absolutely peaks when the people feel there's a threat coming from the outside, that it's an "us-vs-them" situation, and this ties in with the dehumanization of the "other" which is seen as threatening and inferior.
 
Fair enough.

That dude in the photo. When you look at him, is there anything neutral about that image? Can you really be that proud of your country without experiencing a sense of arrogance or egocentrism about your identity and/or your roots?

Either that or he has truly amazing fashion sense.
 
Many people are living in an 'empire of illusion':

[video=youtube;dHle_turjes]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHle_turjes[/video]