Does everyone deserve love? | INFJ Forum

Does everyone deserve love?

jupiterswoon

jupiterswoon

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Mar 30, 2012
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I recently conversed with a friend who said that in his last relationship he was "good" the whole time, and couldn't believe that it didn't work out.

Personally, just because a person is "good" in a relationship, aka well behaved, doesn't necessarily imply that they deserve that same behavior. That strikes me as a transactional relationship- "I will be good" implies that "you need to be good to me". Sometimes even if a person is "good" they might have different intentions. I have met many people who thought that because they were "good" they arbitrarily deserved things- like the "nice guy" who suddenly starts getting pushy because he feels like he is "owed" something.

I think on a deeper level, some people are not necessarily capable of loving or being loved, and that although people have potentially lovable things about them, it doesn't mean they are unequivocally lovable.

It also makes me wonder what would happen as soon as that person gets tired of being "good" that they might fall into all sorts of behavior that comes to them more easily once they get what they want or get tired of fronting.

It strikes me that people in healthy relationships might never say they were on "good" behavior, just simply that they are "lucky" to be in those relationships.

When people start feeling like they deserve love, I don't think that relationship is built on actual love. Love to me seems to be about not having expectations, and opening oneself up to vulnerability. Being on good behavior seems to be more about preventing hurt, than really loving someone. It also seems to be more about implicitly using guilt than enjoyment.

Thoughts?

Do you think people deserve love- is it a right? How would you personally quantify a person's lovability?

Do you think all people are lovable? Do you think that "good" behavior deserves a relationship? How do you define your own relationships? Have you been in relationships where the other person used this argument? What do you think the relationship is between expectations and the quality of a relationship?
 
jupiterswoon said:
I recently conversed with a friend who said that in his last relationship he was "good" the whole time, and couldn't believe that it didn't work out.

Personally, just because a person is "good" in a relationship, aka well behaved, doesn't necessarily imply that they deserve that same behavior. That strikes me as a transactional relationship- "I will be good" implies that "you need to be good to me". Sometimes even if a person is "good" they might have different intentions. I have met many people who thought that because they were "good" they arbitrarily deserved things- like the "nice guy" who suddenly starts getting pushy because he feels like he is "owed" something.

I think on a deeper level, some people are not necessarily capable of loving or being loved, and that although people have potentially lovable things about them, it doesn't mean they are unequivocally lovable.

It also makes me wonder what would happen as soon as that person gets tired of being "good" that they might fall into all sorts of behavior that comes to them more easily once they get what they want or get tired of fronting.

It strikes me that people in healthy relationships might never say they were on "good" behavior, just simply that they are "lucky" to be in those relationships.

When people start feeling like they deserve love, I don't think that relationship is built on actual love. Love to me seems to be about not having expectations, and opening oneself up to vulnerability. Being on good behavior seems to be more about preventing hurt, than really loving someone. It also seems to be more about implicitly using guilt than enjoyment.

Thoughts?

Do you think people deserve love- is it a right? How would you personally quantify a person's lovability?

Do you think all people are lovable? Do you think that "good" behavior deserves a relationship? How do you define your own relationships? Have you been in relationships where the other person used this argument? What do you think the relationship is between expectations and the quality of a relationship?
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He sounds like he is a bit immature.
That is not what lasting, healthy relationships are built on…it about mutual respect, mutual caring, mutual responsibility….not, I didn’t fuck someone else, therefore you should fuck me….lol.
There are people out there who think that the world revolves around them…and they usually end up with someone who has self-esteem problems and thinks they cannot do any better.
There are people who are honest to goodness sociopathic…or borderline sociopathic…they emulate emotions…they manipulate…but they either don’t have feelings, or the feelings that they do have are muted.
For someone like that to be in a real relationship based on love - I don’t think that can be done.
As for the “nice guy” who starts to get pushy -
I have to blame society and women a little bit for this one….(I am going to generalize a little so don’t jump all over me for it…of course there are exceptions) women want the bad boy, the edgy guy, the deep brooding type, etc…until they feel their biological clock ticking and decide to start a family or settle down then they pay attention to the “nice guy” who was previously ignored and shot down by women constantly. Some of those “nice guys” may have some anger toward those types of women who treated them this was previously and now seem to desire them…some of those “nice guys” are not so nice anymore because of constant rejection.
Of course that isn’t an excuse for treating anyone as if they deserve to be loved…love from another (at least healthy love) needs to be a balanced give-and-take or one or the other will start to have resentments. It takes work to be in a healthy relationship…even the best relationships.
But being in a relationship shouldn’t be give, give, give, of yourself too, without some taking…..it should be mutually beneficial….that is the whole point of being with someone….they are giving you something - physically, emotionally, security-wise, that you share and return.
 
I agree with your view regarding expectations of love, but I think everyone can be loved, even "good" guys gone wrong.

I wouldn't quantify a person's lovability, I think that is silly and pointless.

I don't think anyone deserves a relationship, nor the opposite.

the "nice guy" who suddenly starts getting pushy because he feels like he is "owed" something.
This cracked me up.
 
Universally, I believe everyone is deserving of love.
 
Serenity said:
Universally, I believe everyone is deserving of love.
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I think everyone needs love, it is a primary reinforcer, but I don't think they deserve it, can you explain why you think that?
 
jupiterswoon said:
Personally, just because a person is "good" in a relationship, aka well behaved, doesn't necessarily imply that they deserve that same behavior. That strikes me as a transactional relationship- "I will be good" implies that "you need to be good to me". Sometimes even if a person is "good" they might have different intentions. I have met many people who thought that because they were "good" they arbitrarily deserved things- like the "nice guy" who suddenly starts getting pushy because he feels like he is "owed" something.
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The tone of this sounds like you simply don't respect a guy with this mentality.
For someone to feel like he is owed something, it's usually that he feels he's not getting the same value he's contributed.
And for you (or whomever) to have an issue with someone who feels he's owed something, it's because you do not realize/care/respect his contributions.
Despite how much you value your "deep" conenction/love you have with someone, you must either look beyond your small (yes, despite how deep you feel you are, there's more to life than that) bubble of concerns, or find someone who appreciates you the same way you do.

jupiterswoon said:
I think on a deeper level, some people are not necessarily capable of loving or being loved, and that although people have potentially lovable things about them, it doesn't mean they are unequivocally lovable.
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Do all people deserve love? Maybe not your love. People love in different ways. Yours isn't the only way.

jupiterswoon said:
It also makes me wonder what would happen as soon as that person gets tired of being "good" that they might fall into all sorts of behavior that comes to them more easily once they get what they want or get tired of fronting.
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Maybe there are people like that. I think people do the best they can to be in a relationship they want to continue. They will behave how they beleive they should.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm just seeing some random dude who isn't compatible with his girlfriend where you see him as the devil.

jupiterswoon said:
It strikes me that people in healthy relationships might never say they were on "good" behavior, just simply that they are "lucky" to be in those relationships.
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Whatever they're saying, I agree with the idea of this statement.

jupiterswoon said:
When people start feeling like they deserve love, I don't think that relationship is built on actual love. Love to me seems to be about not having expectations, and opening oneself up to vulnerability. Being on good behavior seems to be more about preventing hurt, than really loving someone. It also seems to be more about implicitly using guilt than enjoyment.
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No offense to the _STJs (I jest with my opinion), but what you're describing sounds like their ideal arrangement of love. The important message here is that this is their kind of love, not yours.
 
If for no other reason than the problems it keeps people out of by the sense of inclusion it affords.
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION], I've also seen women do this same thing, where they let themselves go and completely give up on themselves, but think they deserve fidelity because they were "good" to their partner.

With them it's interesting because they do the "give-give-giving" with no front. I don't know which is worse- false facades or self-sacrificers. I'm bemoaning the techniques that people use to goad others into loving them.

I can understand the "nice" guys resentment, although it strikes me as funny, because maybe those girls they want are the "bad" girls. And when all those nice guys get hurt by the bad girls who were hurt by the bad guys, they go back to the nice girls who in turn resent them, lol- I just went there because I liked the twist.
 
[MENTION=5511]o_q[/MENTION] touché!
 
I think fundamentally that everyone deserves to to love and be loved in return, but at the same time, I don't think that gives anyone the right to demand it from someone. Real love is an expression of selflessness and it is given freely; it is not an exchange for emotional services rendered, Everyone has an idea of what they need to feel loved, and if you're in a relationship with someone with whom there is a connection and you feel like the other person's expression of affection needs tweaking, you have a right to ask if they can change the way they express their feelings or change their behaviour to better be in sync with yours. The assumption is that they care enough about you to take your perspective into account and reach a compromise because they want you in their life. If their feelings are not that strong, however, there is no power on earth that will move them to feel otherwise. No guilt, no fear, no manipulation, no emotional martyring, no physical violence or bribery will move them to feel love for you. Even if some of those coercion tactics might influence their behaviour, the motivation behind it is not love, it is something else.

I realize I've been singing a theme lately and that is that fundamentally love needs to begin with the self before it can be extended to others and accepted in turn. Self-love isn't about the ego; it isn't about putting others down to feel better about yourself or investing all your time and effort into, well, just you. It's about self-acceptance and being able to see yourself as you truly are that enables you to choose your relationships and connections with others based on self-truths rather than delusions or coping mechanisms. So many people get into relationships for the wrong reasons, thinking that loving another is away to substitute loving yourself, but in the end, the ego-problems that you're desperately trying to ignore end up leaking into your relationship and poisoning it, revealing that maybe you're not in the relationship for the right reasons, that maybe the other person isn't right for you but you desperately want them to be because you want them reflect something or other about yourself that soothes the wounded ego you're trying to patch over.

tl;dr: I think everyone deserves love, but they must also be prepared to receive and recognize the genuine article, not necessarily what you think or want it to look like to serve a broken ego.
 
jupiterswoon said:
@Skarekrow, I've also seen women do this same thing, where they let themselves go and completely give up on themselves, but think they deserve fidelity because they were "good" to their partner.

With them it's interesting because they do the "give-give-giving" with no front. I don't know which is worse- false facades or self-sacrificers. I'm bemoaning the techniques that people use to goad others into loving them.

I can understand the "nice" guys resentment, although it strikes me as funny, because maybe those girls they want are the "bad" girls. And when all those nice guys get hurt by the bad girls who were hurt by the bad guys, they go back to the nice girls who in turn resent them, lol- I just went there because I liked the twist.
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True, true…there are “nice guys” who remain “nice guys” and in the long run, I think they are the ones who end up winning.
I think the give, give, give, type people who don’t know how to take…probably do it though fear and low self-esteem…and part of that can be alleviated by being in a healthy relationship with the right person…a good partner would never let someone give, give, give, without some red flags being raised and correcting the situation.
 
When people start feeling like they deserve love, I don't think that relationship is built on actual love. Love to me seems to be about not having expectations, and opening oneself up to vulnerability. Being on good behavior seems to be more about preventing hurt, than really loving someone. It also seems to be more about implicitly using guilt than enjoyment.
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I think there is a distinction between 'deserving love' and 'expecting love'. It's like a parent/child relationship, a good parent deserves to be loved by their child but they cannot expect it. Good parents do everything they can for their child to the best of their ability because they love them and feel responsible for them but not usually because they expect something in return. If they're child is selfish and ungrateful that doesn't mean the parent doesn't deserve the love that they are not getting.

I believe in loving everybody. I'm not sure that everybody deserves it but I think that is the best way to live with an open heart and an open spirit, loving everybody. Loving people though doesn't mean you let them get away with things that are negative or hurtful behaviours but it means that you still treat them with dignity as you put up boundaries and speak your truth. I do believe that decent loving people deserve to be loved, but that doesn't mean that they get the love they deserve, and living with expectations of it can lead to more pain than necessary.

Unfortunately many people don't get the love they deserve.

As to "being good" in a relationship, different people have different expectations and different needs so because somebody sees their own behaviour as "being good" doesn't mean that is what the other person needs or wants. Open communication and genuine caring is the only way a couple can know if what they are doing is "good" for their relationship.
 
I believe everyone deserves love - regardless of if you need it or want it. As a human, I think it's what makes us great - our capacity to share our love. I think there's a major distinction between loves though...just because you're a good person, doesn't mean I'll 'romantically' love you, or that you deserve being my partner.
 
jupiterswoon said:
Do you think people deserve love- is it a right? How would you personally quantify a person's lovability?

Do you think all people are lovable? Do you think that "good" behavior deserves a relationship? How do you define your own relationships? Have you been in relationships where the other person used this argument? What do you think the relationship is between expectations and the quality of a relationship?
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Wow, so I wrote out a nice long response, then accidentally deleted it. I will try to recreate it :/

Ok, so before I begin, I think a distinction must be made about the type of love. It seems to me there are several kinds of love, for example: love of a spouse/significant other, love of a family member, love of a friend, love of a pet, love of an object, self love, superficial love, etc (however an argument could be made that some of those aren't true love). There are also distinctions on the way a person can be loved. This part seems very similar to the discussion I commented on "what is caring". I will post a link to that after this. I will assume you are talking about the kind of love of a spouse or significant other. I will call this marital love.

To the question of do people deserve love/is it a right, I would have to say no. People do not have a right to be loved. I think love, like trust, is earned. You do not just walk up to some person you have never met and fully and completely love them on the spot. To step away a second, I would say that caring and loving are very similar, in fact I would go so far as to say they are the same thing. However, I think our vernacular tends to say that caring is a lesser form of love. You might care about a person, but that does not mean that you would love them. Now back to my point. For two people to actually love each other, it is a process and it is not easy. True love cannot be taken or given, and I do not think anyone has a right to be loved. Each person must earn it by being who they are. If two different people are who they are, and they are similar in personality to the point that they mesh well together, then a connection is formed. What is done with that connection is determined by the two people, meaning if they wish to be friends or significant others. So basically love is earned when two people who mesh well enough together choose to accept and go through with loving each other.
That being said, I also agree that people should/need to be loved. Humans are after all a social creature. It's just we all go about being sociable in different ways (yes there are a few exceptions, but that is a very small minority). I think this desire and need to be cared for is a natural inborn thing to humans. Personally, I think it is very obvious why each of us would desire to be loved. To be loved by another person is a magical and unique thing. Something that should be treasured once achieved, however it should not be expected.

To your next question, I would say no, love is not quantifiable. Any one person could be loved in many different ways, and different people can love different things. For example, my mom loves guacamole. Me, not so much :). Or, both me and my friend love dogs, but I love dogs because they are loyal, and he loves dogs because they are fun. Because a thing can be loved in different ways and for different reasons, there does not seem to be a quantifiable way that can be set to say this person is so so & lovable that is constant for everyone. Here's an illustration. Take persons A, B, and b. Persons A and B could not mesh well, and therefore not love each other, while persons B and b could mesh well and love each other. So to person b, other person B could be very lovable even though to person A, person B is not lovable. There does not seem to be any constant, so it does not seem quantifiable.

As for if all people are lovable, I would have to say I don't know. If you consider statistical probability, then it would seem for any one person, it is very likely that there is some other person on the planet with whom they would be compatible and would be loved by. But that leaves questions of will they ever meet, will any proper consideration be given to loving each other. It is also just as likely that there is some people out there who literally do not mesh with anyone and therefore are not lovable. However there is no way to test or prove this either way. Too many variables, so I have no idea. I would like to believe that there is someone out there for everybody though.

Is good behavior deserving of a relationship? I would say no based on the same point made about do people deserve love. I think being good is the best way to get a good relationship. Not that it is deserving of a relationship. Also, just being good to mean polite and kind is not necessarily enough. Consideration must be given. Any good relationship (like what skarekrow was talking about) is a two way street of give and takes where both sides must mesh well and be happy. It doesn't matter how nice you are, if you don't mesh well, then you won't have a relationship. However, like I said, being good I think is the best way to get a good relationship. No one should expect to be loved. However it is really really nice whenever it does happen. Real love is a rare thing. Don't force it. When it finds you, you will know, and you are lucky for it. If it is meant to be, then it probably will be. If not, let it go. However this is not to say just sit passively. A good relationship does require effort. Active participation from both parties.

I'm not sure how to define my own relationships, and I'm not sure if it would help. The closest relationship I have is my best friend. We both understand each other and can talk about anything. However that is what I want in relationships. Honesty and openness. Acceptance and understanding. I would expect the same (and then a little more) from a significant other. Different people might not like that or put as much emphasis on it. We cannot tell you how or when to love. Everyone is different. It depends on if you mesh well with the other person or not. If you don't mesh, then its not meant to be. However, I will say it again, a relationship takes effort. Not everyone will be exactly the same or completely understand. It more depends on if you get along well together. And this even doesn't mean no fighting, because fighting is sometimes needed. To say what is a good relationship is very complicated. I'm not going to get into that unless asked, because that is a very long discussion.

I have not been in another relationship where the other person used that argument. The relationships I've been in with a significant other (never became very significant) we bother understood the idea of if we were right for each other or not. Neither of us expected the other to love them. We just saw that we weren't right for long term relationships, and subsequently moved on.

I think I might have said do not expect another to love you, but this is not to mean there are no expectations in a relationship. You will have your own expectations of the other person. For example, I expect my friend to listen if I'm in trouble (and vice versa). If he ever I were in serious trouble, and he wouldn't listen, that would be very harmful to our relationship. The same is true in couples. You will have a core set of values unique to what you want/desire. If that person fulfills them, then they mesh with you. You should also know the other person will have there own unique set of core values. If you fills those you mesh with them. However its not this cut and dry. Remember that give and take thing I mentioned? this is where it comes in. Sometimes you might have to give on some of your expectations and sometimes the other person might as well. However do not give to much. For example, I never swear. I would expect the same from my significant other. However, if they swear occasionally accidentally, I will accept that. That is me giving a little from my expectations. However, if I had a girl who was hussying around with a bunch of other guys, I would be saying no, its over. I'm not gonna give much on that topic. As for the quality of the relationship, I would say it depends on how well the two people mesh. If the two people don't have to give much to make the relationship work, then it is a high quality. If they have to make a lot of gives to make the relationship work, then its not very high quality. But this also depends on how happy the person is. If they are extremely happy, then it would also be a good quality, but if they are miserable, then obviously its not a good relationship.

Hopefully this was helpful. I hope this made sense, I made a lot better sense the first time I typed it out :/. oh well. If I need to clarify some points or you have other questions or disagreements, feel free to point them out.
 
Which sort of relationships are we talking about here? Friendships, romantic, or marriage?

Marriage vows are promises each partner in a couple makes to the other during a wedding ceremony.
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These are explicitly stated to be 'exchanged' during the ceremony as well. So yes, a relationship is a transactional arrangement.

The difference arises in immediacy though. Most exchanges we think of are immediate although contractual arrangements can extend these into the future. A marriage is 'until death do ye part,' and hence should be viewed as an averaging of fair and equal exchanges. In good times and in poor, in sickness and in health, and for richer or poorer.

So yes, married couples take a sacred vow to love their partner even in bad times. It's not really distinguishable whether a partner is breaking their vow or is just going through a bad time in the relationship though if they were to say, "I don't love you anymore." So to say to that person that they are owed 'love' is either true or false depending on the stance taken.

Edit: Of course, there is the reverse psychological factor where each is to be perceived as 'sacrificing' for each other, i.e. giving their love unconditionally and that it just so happens to equal out, but this is easily contradicted as soon as one side dominates the other side into a dysfunctional relationship and demonstrates that love is not unconditional. If it were, we'd have sexual dalliances more akin to bonobo chimps and there would be no such thing as a feeling of jealousy.
 
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No one deserves it. If you are lucky though, you get it.
 
"If you would be loved, be lovable" - Ovid
 
Accepting love gratefully doesn't sit with the notion of earning/taking/deserving love.

Love is a free gift. The only thing one can do is to let people be more free, so that they can give more love.
 
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