Does an intj have hope of fully understanding an infj? | INFJ Forum

Does an intj have hope of fully understanding an infj?

Keirouen

Community Member
Jun 3, 2014
185
65
0
MBTI
intj
In the deepest possible way, can an intj hope to understand how an infj thinks and feels? Is an intj capable of experiencing a wide spectrum of emotions as intimately as an infj naturally does?

Or is it that, if an intj manages to feel what an infj feels -the intj has now become an infj?

Can an intj resemble an infj when the intj has accepted his or her sensitivities and volnurabilities?

What more than anything else sets an intj and infj apart when it comes to friendships and intimate relationships?
 
I think that INTJ's stand to gain much more from a relationship with INFJ's than INFJ's do

It's like the tinman befriending the scarecrow to learn how to have a heart, but what does the scarecrow get in return?

INTJ's tend to respect competency but the things INFJ's are particularly competent at are not always so easy to define and therefore it is easy for INFJ's to go unappreciated by INTJ's

So if an INTJ is basking in the warm glow of the INFJ's heart and the INFJ is not appreciated in return....how sustainable is that?
 
Last edited:
It's like the tinman befriending the scarecrow to learn how to have a heart, but what does the scarecrow get in return?

A brain?

C'mon, you set that one up. It was impossible for me to resist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: muir
There's a difference between 'understanding' and 'becoming' an INFJ. You don't change your type. Barring some kind of head trauma or serious acid trip, you don't re-order years and years of habitual thought processing and switch out linear thinking Te for holistic thinking Fe. You can simulate one or the other with Te+Fi and Fe+Ti auxiliary-tertiary pairs, but it's never that 'neat.'

I think fundamentally you can understand anyone if you spend some time with them and are a little more open to their thinking. It starts with acceptance.

That being said, INTJ and INFJ do have the same underlying push-pull of Ni+Se. The following is ganked from personality cafe user, Cegorach:


The following is an excerpt from Naomi Quenk's book "Was That Really Me? How Everyday Stress Brings Out Our Hidden Personality"
(Further types will be posted in the future.)

The Form of the Inferior Function

INTJs and INFJs appear less likely than other Introverted types to get much pleasure from a lessening of introverted �inhibitions,� although some INTJ males describe becoming more extraverted in a positive, sociable way. An INFJ said he is �surprisingly more extraverted, especially in the company of strangers; more expressive and less contained.� Female Introverted Intuitive types mention increased sociability less frequently, possibly because they, like other women who are Introverts, are encouraged (or required) to develop social skills. However, for the most part, the obsessiveness and discomfort that accompany extraverting their Sensing function is experienced as overwhelmingly distressing for both male and female INTJs and INFJs.

As dominant Introverted Intuition loses its position of primacy, INTJs and INFJs start to lose their characteristic wide-ranging, global perspective. Their field of operation narrows considerably, and their range of acknowledged possibilities becomes limited and idiosyncratic. They may make more factual mistakes and become careless with spelling and grammar. �I am unable to cope with simple decisions and problems,� said an INTJ woman. �I'm frustrated by the physical world�I lose things, drop them, hate them. I don't know what to wear or what to eat. I'm impatient with people and can't read or concentrate.� An INTJ said she obsessively looks for the �right� factual piece of information that will solve the problem. �I notice things not put away around the house�things that are broken or things to do.� As their hold on their dominant and auxiliary functions further diminishes, the qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing manifest in an obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world.

For INTJs, tertiary Feeling may abet the process in that the �facts� (real or invented) on which the INTJ obsesses are often used as �proof� that others discount, devalue, or dislike the INTJ. Similar �facts� may be used by the INFJs tertiary Thinking to prove that the INFJ is inadequate or a failure. The comparison between dominant and inferior Extraverted Sensing is shown in Table 12.

Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)


Obsessive Focus on External Data

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment� the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drive. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: �I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me.� An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described �obsessing about details.� He gave as an example:

When I'm using power tools that can cause injury, I will spend an inordinate amount of energy making sure that I'm not going to inadvertently hurt myself when I turn the thing on. I will triple-check to make sure my fingers are out of the way, etc. Usually I take in the world more globally and have less concern about details until I need them.�


Table 12
Dominant and Inferior Expressions of Extraverted Sensing
As Dominant Function of As Inferior Function of:

ESTPs and ESFPs
� Focus on external data
� Seeking sensual/aesthetic pleasure
� Delight in the outer world

INTJs and INFJs
� Obsessive focus on external data
� Overindulgence in sensual pleasure
� Adversarial attitude toward the outer world


�I'm more likely to have accidents,� said an INTJ. �I'm robotic, forget things, say things backwards; I'm obsessed with a thought and can't get it out of my mind. I try to control situations and people and engage in strange behavior, like checking on things,� said an INTJ woman. And another INTJ woman said, �I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function and make decisions�sort of paralyzed.� An INFJ said, �I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do that thing I thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds.� �I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly,� reported another INFJ. �I nitpick about things in the environment. I bombard people verbally and obsess out loud.�

An INTJ recalled the following from his childhood and adolescence:
�When my studies were not going too well I would start to develop detailed tables of data, or drawings to support technical/science answers. These were frequently in too great detail, taking a lot of time and usually out of all proportion to the task and the length of the answers sought�or even irrelevant to the original questions.�
Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual �See you next week,� an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated therapy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the �overindulgence� manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.


Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming �self-centered� and �self-indulgent� when they are in the grip�a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. They may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical �tactic� is to overindulge compulsively and immediately thereafter�if not during the episode�berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior. An INTJ described the experience this way:
�There is a clear preliminary state where I am totally apart from the real world. I am not even an observer, and I can completely ignore anything real. It's a nice fantasy, that's all�just absorbing. But later I become excessively indulgent, getting totally immersed in physical experiences� eating, exercise, pulp fiction, TV. But I don't enjoy it. It feels like a dangerous roller coaster, but I'm immobilized and can't get off.�

An INFJ said, �I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something� one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things.� Another said, �I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I'm late for everything.� An INTJ said her pattern is to overeat, feel guilty about it, wake up in the night and feel worse, get too little sleep, causing her to feel more vulnerable, and then eat more. Another INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: �I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!� she said.


Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment. Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. �I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me,� said an INTJ. An INFJ said she �becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world.�

An INTJ said, �I start tripping over things and feel out of control in the external world. I feel like I'm under a dark cloud. I get hung up on some false fact and distort it. I get stressed out about time�too many things and not enough time. I attack others with words and then feel guilty.� An INFJ described herself as �shutting down, communicating very little. I misplace things, especially keys and watches. I'm very harsh, critical, not diplomatic. I lose my temper, obsess about details, organize, reorganize, yet nothing gets done.�

Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. �I'm moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger,� said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: �I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone.� Another said, �I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the 'conflict' and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated.�

The altered state of any inferior function is typically accompanied by a lessening of social controls and therefore more frequent expressions of anger. However, the character of the anger may be different for different types. For INTJs and INFJs, the �cause� of distress is often one or more �objects� in the environment. The anger directed at either things or people may therefore be more focused, intense, and extreme than with other inferior functions. Introverted Intuitive types may be unable to recognize alternative possibilities so that their perspective becomes extremely narrow. This tunnel vision and externalization of blame can produce ruthless results.

One INTJ said, �I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike.� Another INTJ said, �If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself� but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there.� An INFJ observed, �I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have no energy to be bothered with anyone else.�
 
A brain?

C'mon, you set that one up. It was impossible for me to resist.

Lol

True....but...INFJ's already have a brain

The 'brain' i beleive that INTJ's can offer is their competency; but INFJ's are generally speaking also competent people (they are conscientious and want to do a good job)

The point i'm trying to make in all this is not to drive a wedge between INTJ's and INFJ's but to try and plant a seed in the minds of any INTJ's reading this who are considering relations with an INFJ

If you want it to be reciprocal...and i know it would be lovely to live in a world of unconditional love etc....but unfortunately the world is such that often both sides in a relationship must pull their weight and there needs to be both give and take.....then what i'm saying to INTJ's is that if there is something they appreciate about an INFJ...if there's something that draws them to the INFJ...even if it is not easy to immediately put your finger on it....think about what it is and express appreciation for it

I think INTJ's can struggle with that because they place things in a competency hierarchy and if they have not placed the thing the INFJ does well in that hierarchy because it is difficult to define then the appreciation won't be there (on a conscious level anyway)

INFJ's are loving people who have a warm fuzzy side...so discover your warm fuzzy side or there will only be one sided warm fuzzyness and i think that can cause problems...once again it will be the INFJ that misses out
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: invisible
Lol

True....but...INFJ's already have a brain

The 'brain' i beleive that INTJ's can offer is their competency; but INFJ's are generally speaking also competent people (they are conscientious and want to do a good job)

The point i'm trying to make in all this is not to drive a wedge between INTJ's and INFJ's but to try and plant a seed in the minds of any INTJ's reading this who are considering relations with an INFJ

If you want it to be reciprocal...and i know it would be lovely to live in a world of unconditional love etc....but unfortunately the world is such that often both sides in a relationship must pull their weight and there needs to be both give and take.....then what i'm saying to INTJ's is that if there is something they appreciate about an INFJ...if there's something that draws them to the INFJ...even if it is not easy to immediately put your finger on it....think about what it is and express appreciation for it

I think INTJ's can struggle with that because they place things in a competency hierarchy and if they have not placed the thing the INFJ does well in that hierarchy because it is difficult to define then the appreciation won't be there (on a conscious level anyway)

INFJ's are loving people who have a warm fuzzy side...so discover your warm fuzzy side or there will only be one sided warm fuzzyness and i think that can cause problems...once again it will be the INFJ that misses out

You could say the same about every relationship. Mutual appreciation is important, no matter the type.

There's also more than one type of appreciation. You don't always need to say it with words. I express caring in my actions and the people who know me accept that. I also accept that others will show this through loving remarks or physical gestures.
 
In the deepest possible way, can an intj hope to understand how an infj thinks and feels? Is an intj capable of experiencing a wide spectrum of emotions as intimately as an infj naturally does?

Unlike what most think, I don't really think there is that much of a difference between the two types. Keeping the big picture of typology in perspective: INTJs place the impersonal before the personal and INFJs place the personal before the impersonal. Unhealthy types will accentuate these differences or perspectives.

Or is it that, if an intj manages to feel what an infj feels -the intj has now become an infj?
Both will have similar feelings, but I speculate that the INTJ will try to dismiss many of them as irrational/illogical while the INFJ will try to understand them and use them to better connect with others. An INTJ should learn to accept more of their emotions and an INFJ should learn to not accept too many of theirs.

Can an intj resemble an infj when the intj has accepted his or her sensitivities and volnurabilities?
Yes, they are very similar and there is overlap. A healthy INTJ will not suppress emotions, but learn to deal with them.

What more than anything else sets an intj and infj apart when it comes to friendships and intimate relationships?
An INFJ is emotionally needier than an INTJ. We are much more comfortable talking about our feelings and the feelings of others. My INTJ friend looks like he wants to run away when I start talking about feelings.
 
You could say the same about every relationship. Mutual appreciation is important, no matter the type.

I wholeheartedly agree

There's also more than one type of appreciation.You don't always need to say it with words. I express caring in my actions and the people who know me accept that. I also accept that others will show this through loving remarks or physical gestures.

Here's the rub...

INTJ's expect people to just know that they are appreciated

What i'm saying is it wouldn't hurt you too much once in a while to express that some way (other than just being around someone) to your potential or actual INFJ partner

....the sky won't fall on you and it is not a sign of weakness
 
Here's the rub...

INTJ's expect people to just know that they are appreciated

What i'm saying is it wouldn't hurt you too much once in a while to express that some way (other than just being around someone) to your potential or actual INFJ partner

....the sky won't fall on you and it is not a sign of weakness

There are many times I feel uncomfortable when someone expresses love in a physical way or when a partner expects me to need reassurance and appreciation, but it only feels smothering. I may want them to show they care by offering logical solution to a problem I'm dealing with, but they find that hard to believe.

How is this any different from helping someone with a project when they wanted a hug? Show I show and expect love only on their terms?

I do agree with you and try to show appreciation in a way that's desirable to loved ones, but these questions are often on my mind.
 
There are many times I feel uncomfortable when someone expresses love in a physical way or when a partner expects me to need reassurance and appreciation, but it only feels smothering. I may want them to show they care by offering logical solution to a problem I'm dealing with, but they find that hard to believe.

How is this any different from helping someone with a project when they wanted a hug? Show I show and expect love only on their terms?

I do agree with you and try to show appreciation in a way that's desirable to loved ones, but these questions are often on my mind.

It's good stuff...we're outlining a kind of potential chasm that can open up between these two types

The problem solving thing is interesting though...it reminds me of that book: 'men are from mars, women are from venus' which makes a case for men always wanting to solve problems while women sometimes just want to be sympathised with lol

Regarding the answers to these things...i can't say for sure; i'm no expert and every case will be different

Although a BIG hug straight from the heart...you know...one of those big wrap-around, envelope them into your being with kindness kind of efforts, followed by some eye contact and a big grin would never go amiss with an INFJ
 
Great question. I counter with the question of, are feelings of importance? If so, why?
 
you have your own special gifts, you dont need to worry about comparing to the standards of others.

I was told this once...but they were referring to my chest pillows.
 
Its hard to "read" a INFJ. We "escape" from any box any time.
 
INFJs helps INTJs to open their heart and learn a different way of living, to love and to be loved (to a moderate level). INTJs help INFJs set a boundary of their overwhelming emotions and force them to act more on their judgments instead of purely on their feelings.

The interesting part is the communication. As an INFJ, I found the process of rationalizing "feelings" and "emotions" to an INTJ is both challenging and rewarding (well, somewhat).

I think both sides benefit.