Determinism VS Free Will
- Thread starter Clayd
- Start date
- Status
I somewhat agree, tho such notion would apply to many more fields and is similar to using mundane realism as a critic. You will find that many proclaimed results from psychology, sociology and humanities in general all suffer from mundane realism in one form or the other, in that sense, the question remains how is it applicable to the real world, and that's a direction that we can only learn.
The concept of determinism actually encompasses many major fields of science and is actually not just limited to critical thinking or a philosophy of life.
Critical thinking is not a field. I consider it the engine of philosophy. I don't say this to be contrary, but I generally avoid separating knowledge into sections. How does this knowledge help you? I guess that's really the question I meant to ask. This isn't necessarily to say it isn't useful.
That video makes logical leaps which are not valid. It asserts that greater variety of choice within a deterministic spectrum of choices actually enables a change in the deterministic universe.
My opinion of free will is that it is an entirely subjective experience. The ability to know various options and subjectively freely choose between them is the essence of free will. However, this does not nullify that our free choices are entirely determined, even though we do not experience them as such. Our own physical structure, which determines our neurology and responses to our physical environment (internal and external) all obey the laws of physics (whether those laws be know or not).
Free will is not an illusion, but a part of the determined universe, much like movement is part of a static universe. Movement and physical change is real within the universe, but viewed from a fifth dimensional viewpoint (viewing across time, not through it) the universe is physically static and potentiality becomes the dynamic factor.
My opinion of free will is that it is an entirely subjective experience. The ability to know various options and subjectively freely choose between them is the essence of free will. However, this does not nullify that our free choices are entirely determined, even though we do not experience them as such. Our own physical structure, which determines our neurology and responses to our physical environment (internal and external) all obey the laws of physics (whether those laws be know or not).
Free will is not an illusion, but a part of the determined universe, much like movement is part of a static universe. Movement and physical change is real within the universe, but viewed from a fifth dimensional viewpoint (viewing across time, not through it) the universe is physically static and potentiality becomes the dynamic factor.
Not too be argumentative, but critical thinking is a separate topic all together.
The real question, for me. Is how much control and direction do we actually posses over the course of our life time? It's fundamentally a question of CONTROL and a capacity to foresee the future outcomes.
That's OK, because the clip was only used to express a concern; as far as the elements of free will you spoke of, and how the cosmos are in a orderly deterministic motion, we can only assume that such a vast example would only deteriorate our search for answers. Free will is not jus a process of decision making, but a lot more.
So where is the issue within you that is bothering you in concerns to this thread?
Is is a question of control for you as you suggest or something else entirely?
Do you believe in the dualism of brain/mind, or do you believe the materialist science perspective that our brains are biological computers and we only have the illusion of choice as many promote?
Personally, I believe we have free will, but also that it also already exists somewhere - that doesn’t exclude me from making that choice even if we could see what the future contained…but if you could see it, then your choices would change just by the knowledge of the outcome.
This ultimately boils down to the “hard problem” of consciousness as coined by David Chalmers - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness
Separation is something you choose to do. If your reasoning is based on how things happen to be taught, I ask that you consider that knowledge could be grouped differently. The things we know could be taught from a completely different frame, however coming to the same conclusions.
In my observations, it is the people who take action that tend to believe in free will. It is quite possible that reality does not care about our human perception of determinism and free will, and that actually both exists despite our lack of comprehension of such a thing many of us would consider a "paradox". This is somewhat my belief - that free will - a concept centered on our infinitesimal human minds among the infinite universe, has control over anything. Statistics convince us there is such a thing. It seems foolish to ignore that.
Can’t really say it better than this:
I have come to accept the feeling of not knowing where I am going. And I have trained myself to love it. Because it is only when we are suspended in mid-air with no landing in sight, that we force our wings to unravel and alas begin our flight. And as we fly, we still may not know where we are going to. But the miracle is in the unfolding of the wings. You may not know where you're going, but you know that so long as you spread your wings, the winds will carry you.”
― C. JoyBell C.
Krishnamurti explains that the one who attempts to control, is the one controlled. The narrator of the video you shared says that evolution is “huge fight of living organisms that try to flourish in the deterministic environment by mastering it.” The ability of a person or species to go beyond survival and lead a life of quality is not a matter of fight, but a matter of living in harmony with one's surroundings.
[video=youtube;b6Fvp8XyJys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6Fvp8XyJys[/video]
Last edited:
So let me ask you....
Do you believe free will and determinism could actually be compatible and may in fact coexist? Do you think that the initial fixed cause does not then rally down a fixed route. That is to say wouldn't the outcome after the causation is set be determined by the laws of physics thereafter?
You mean, what made me start this thread?
It's probably to understand "who I am" in relation to other people, essentially.
I mean, if I start to sing baa baa black sheep randomly simply coz I have the urge to do so it makes a lot less sense.
To me, your second paragraph speaks of the descriptive reality of what is Vs what ought to be. And that in affect is a deterministic approach.
Last edited:
We can greatly control our choices and actions (depending on how developed wisdom and virtues -like self control/moderation are). Yet our future and the choices between here and there are entirely determined. This determination we can neither change, nor even experience, so it is not really relevant to experiencing freedom/control. If we wanted to change that level of determination (and there are others), we would have to be able to both have knowledge, and operate in five dimensions. Yet if one were a fifth dimensional being, one's freedoms would not be in respect of the same freedoms we have now.
Since we cannot know this determination, it is only theoretical. On a side note, we haven't considered quantum intervention.
Randomness is only apparent because of a lack of knowledge of causes and entities.
Early astronomers thought the movement of some "stars" was random - turns out they are planets. Likewise flipping a coin seems random because we do not have the fine motor control and exact knowledge of the surfaces and atmospheric conditions at the time. In a controlled environment, a robot can flip a coin to land on heads every time.
Likewise chaos - we can only say that there is chaos when we cannot explain what is/could be.
Subjective arguments are made against determinism: if a tree falls and no one hears it, does it make a sound? The fact that no human has sufficient knowledge to preclude uncertain knowledge of all events/choices, does not mean it is not knowable and therefore not real. All our knowledge points to all things being knowable, limited only by the ability to measure and know: in essence, our freedom of will is very much a function of our ignorance.
Last edited:
You do something because you can and you want to do it. You therefor 'chose' to do it because you 'wanted' to do it.
BUT isn't the thing that made you want to do it in the first place the thing that is in control? I question can one go against what they want or is that wanting in itself?
So what makes you want to do things? The enviroment interacting with your brain causing excitement within the wiring of the mind that contains your preferences sparks your wants. Therefore you don't choose anything and you are a product of your enviroment like everything else.
BUT isn't the thing that made you want to do it in the first place the thing that is in control? I question can one go against what they want or is that wanting in itself?
So what makes you want to do things? The enviroment interacting with your brain causing excitement within the wiring of the mind that contains your preferences sparks your wants. Therefore you don't choose anything and you are a product of your enviroment like everything else.
Last edited:
[MENTION=9860]Grayman[/MENTION],
You bring up a great point. I hope you don't mind if I share two portions from the Bhagavad Gita that address this:
Material nature consists of the three modes: goodness, passion and ignorance. When the living entity comes in contact with nature, he becomes conditioned by these modes.
The mode of goodness, being purer than the others, is illuminating, and it frees one from all sinful reactions. Those situated in that mode develop knowledge, but they become conditioned by the concept of happiness.
The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities.
The mode of ignorance causes the delusion of all living entities. The result of this mode is madness, indolence and sleep, which bind the conditioned soul.
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Sometimes the mode of passion becomes prominent, defeating the mode of goodness. And sometimes the mode of goodness defeats passion, and at other times the mode of ignorance defeats goodness and passion. In this way there is always competition for supremacy.
The manifestations of the mode of goodness can be experienced when all the gates of the body are illuminated by knowledge.
…
By acting in the mode of goodness, one becomes purified. Works done in the mode of passion result in distress, and actions performed in the mode of ignorance result in foolishness.
From the mode of goodness, real knowledge develops; from the mode of passion, grief develops; and from the mode of ignorance, foolishness, madness and illusion develop.
Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.
When you see that there is nothing beyond these modes of nature in all activities and that the Supreme Self is transcendental to all these modes, then you can know my spiritual nature.
When the embodied being is able to transcend these three modes, he can become free from birth, death, old age and their distresses and can enjoy nectar even in this life.
Arjuna inquired: O my dear Lord, by what symptoms is one known who is transcendental to those modes? What is his behavior? And how does he transcend the modes of nature?
The Blessed Lord said: He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active; who regards alike pleasure and pain, and looks on a lump of dirt, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is wise and holds praise and blame to be the same; who is unchanged in honor and dishonor, who treats friend and foe alike, who has abandoned all fruitive undertakings-such a man is said to have transcended the modes of nature.
One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.
And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.
Ch. 14, 5-27
Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self.
You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.
Be steadfast in yoga, O Arjuna. Perform your duty and abandon all attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called yoga.
Ch. 2, 45-48
You bring up a great point. I hope you don't mind if I share two portions from the Bhagavad Gita that address this:
Material nature consists of the three modes: goodness, passion and ignorance. When the living entity comes in contact with nature, he becomes conditioned by these modes.
The mode of goodness, being purer than the others, is illuminating, and it frees one from all sinful reactions. Those situated in that mode develop knowledge, but they become conditioned by the concept of happiness.
The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities.
The mode of ignorance causes the delusion of all living entities. The result of this mode is madness, indolence and sleep, which bind the conditioned soul.
The mode of goodness conditions one to happiness, passion conditions him to the fruits of action, and ignorance to madness.
Sometimes the mode of passion becomes prominent, defeating the mode of goodness. And sometimes the mode of goodness defeats passion, and at other times the mode of ignorance defeats goodness and passion. In this way there is always competition for supremacy.
The manifestations of the mode of goodness can be experienced when all the gates of the body are illuminated by knowledge.
…
By acting in the mode of goodness, one becomes purified. Works done in the mode of passion result in distress, and actions performed in the mode of ignorance result in foolishness.
From the mode of goodness, real knowledge develops; from the mode of passion, grief develops; and from the mode of ignorance, foolishness, madness and illusion develop.
Those situated in the mode of goodness gradually go upward to the higher planets; those in the mode of passion live on the earthly planets; and those in the mode of ignorance go down to the hellish worlds.
When you see that there is nothing beyond these modes of nature in all activities and that the Supreme Self is transcendental to all these modes, then you can know my spiritual nature.
When the embodied being is able to transcend these three modes, he can become free from birth, death, old age and their distresses and can enjoy nectar even in this life.
Arjuna inquired: O my dear Lord, by what symptoms is one known who is transcendental to those modes? What is his behavior? And how does he transcend the modes of nature?
The Blessed Lord said: He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear; who is seated like one unconcerned, being situated beyond these material reactions of the modes of nature, who remains firm, knowing that the modes alone are active; who regards alike pleasure and pain, and looks on a lump of dirt, a stone and a piece of gold with an equal eye; who is wise and holds praise and blame to be the same; who is unchanged in honor and dishonor, who treats friend and foe alike, who has abandoned all fruitive undertakings-such a man is said to have transcended the modes of nature.
One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.
And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.
Ch. 14, 5-27
Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self.
You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but you are not entitled to the fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your duty.
Be steadfast in yoga, O Arjuna. Perform your duty and abandon all attachment to success or failure. Such evenness of mind is called yoga.
Ch. 2, 45-48
With that logic. Why do we have prisons? And why do we hold prisoners responsible for their predetermined course?
Last edited:
Furthermore, there are a few experiment conducted in how we make spontaneous choices I'm aware of I.e in one experiment where participants were asked to press a buzzer every time they simply "felt" like it. The results were astonishing. They found that 300 millie seconds before the choices were made the brains showed activity in the prefrontal cortex; a readiness before the decision was explicitly made.
Just remember, many more experiments have shown the same effect, and that 300 milllie seconds is actually a significant time given what we understand about the research acknowledged by that field.
Just remember, many more experiments have shown the same effect, and that 300 milllie seconds is actually a significant time given what we understand about the research acknowledged by that field.
I’m not deterministic at all.
Only stating that our understanding of physics and the quantum realm are incredibly limited.
I don’t discount that our brains could be this evolved biological computer, maybe even a natural quantum computer, which may give rise to not only consciousness but also self-awareness and self-reflection. We simply don’t know yet if the mind and brain are separate or there is no such thing as someone’s “Spirit”…we have the ability to go into the brain and disconnect or reconnect certain areas and we can see what they do or do not…but if the brain is the receiver of someone’s spirit and not the transmitter, then the signal remains constant though it must then be funneled through the brain and any inconsistencies it may contain.
If we look at the many universes model of string theory…well there are 3 main models but anyhow, it would have to exist in a place where time is more flexible…we have gaining proof that we as humans perceive things via precognition on a subconscious level - which would make one question if we actually have free will how can precognition work? And the answer is simple - it is the most likely scenario based upon your current pathway - it’s the collapse of the wave function when it actually happens, but some suggest that it is us that collapse the wave function via our observation or even thinking about it - and experiments have been successfully conducted in labs that suggest if our minds do indeed “stretch out” past what we consider the “present”.
The point is - no one really knows, we have some lab data that we think means this or that and we have subjective experiential data and reports of people being out of body, many clinically dead, and some of them have been able to verify small details, but materialist science explains this as taking place either before or after the body was actually dead - but then why do people have an experience at all then? And why are there so many correlations?
What I mean is time is illusory to us, we cannot perceive it any other way than moment to moment strung together like stills in a projector.
But what I suggest is that you do have free will and those choices impact the future, but also may influence and impact the past though that doesn’t eliminate you choosing to do something. Just that we don’t perceive it as such so we can function without our minds consciously showing us multiple timelines.
The brain as Aldous Huxley explained in his book “The Doors of Perception” (paraphrasing) “…the brain acts as a sort of reducing valve, because we couldn’t function otherwise in our day to day lives.”
This is all just speculation and theory, of which there are many more…I just happen to like these.
Last edited:
- Status