Debate on Philosophy and Religion | INFJ Forum

Debate on Philosophy and Religion

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Jun 8, 2012
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It's time!

What do you believe in? Why?

Does your faith inform your every day life? Can you imagine life without it?

Is there such a thing as "free will"? What makes you believe what you believe?

Francis Fukuyama wrote a book that proclaimed the fall of the Berlin wall as the "end of history", since there is now little-to-no alternatives to capitalism and the free market. Is he right? Is there an alternative to the free market?

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years?

What major changes to society do you expect to happen during your life-time? Positive and negative!

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today?

Is the world getting better or worse at the moment?
 
I believe in rather Libertarian philosophies. I think freedom of thought, expression, speech, religion, finances etc are tantamount to promoting free society.

I don't specifically have a faith, nor consider myself a man of faith. It implies very Theistic motives and a belief in something, or an idea without any evidence of its existence or effect on the world.

Free will, in my opinion, is simply a god-fearing method of taking the self-determination that people deserve from their birth to their death, as something which must have ridiculous conditions and rules. One such condition could include several of the 10 'Commandments' as dictated in the Bible. Much must be learned from these texts from a critical standpoint if self-determination can really mean something to the individual.

The fall of the Berlin Wall proved to the entire world that the equal sharing of other people's earnings to such a coerced extent, combined with the total refusal to consider basic human rights, creates a system which is almost certain to collapse by the will and protest of its own citizens. Vladimir Lenin, with the inspiration of Karl Marx and Trotsky, created a system which could not possibly achieve without the complete obedience and conformity of all of its citizens. There is certainly something about Socialism that people are attracted to; the idea that just for a bit of your money and your freedom, the system will take care of you. The welfare provided will make sure you are taken complete care of, but please ignore the catch, otherwise we may have to imprison you.

However, I am not saying that Russia under Vladimir Putin, by definition, is automatically a better system. But AT LEAST the people know where to point the finger. In the Soviet Union, you wouldn't have enough fingers to point at those to blame, the entire system was leeching you of your freedom.

I expect several new waves of Atheism to rise up in the United States and Secularism in the Middle East respectively, particularly in Iran.

The biggest threats facing our world today is Religion. No question. Such ideologies have inspired quite a lot of very big organizations to crop up and rape, pillage, murder, commit genocide and brainwash hundreds of thousands of people across the globe. Not just the Middle-East. What I don't understand is how people, particularly in the West, seem to think this is not a threat. ISIS now controls half of Iraq, and large portions of Syria. Boko Haram are continually gaining territory and completely destroying entire village of people. The Lords' Resistance Army, led by the notorious Joseph Kony has spent many years in central Africa, forcing young boys to recruit more young boys, and forcing young women to be raped by those young boys. I don't need to explain the justifications and reasons why religion is to blame, I've done that in many posts, and a Google search should suffice. If you really want me to explain here, I may consider it. I am trying to make this a quick post.

The world is getting neither better nor worse. Just make your own change, and don't brainwash anybody. You'll be fine ;)
 
Very interesting thoughts! I have a few questions,

I believe in rather Libertarian philosophies. I think freedom of thought, expression, speech, religion, finances etc are tantamount to promoting free society.

Where do the lines go? Can I promote hate-speech, racism and religiously-motivated ultra extremist points of view in your philosophy?
Freedom of finance - what would be the best way of handling macro-economics like taxation, VAT, etc.? What role should the government play in the infrastructure of society?

I don't specifically have a faith, nor consider myself a man of faith. It implies very Theistic motives and a belief in something, or an idea without any evidence of its existence or effect on the world.

Do you understand and respect those with faith? Can you put yourself in their shoes? Do you come from a religious background?

Free will, in my opinion, is simply a god-fearing method of taking the self-determination that people deserve from their birth to their death, as something which must have ridiculous conditions and rules. One such condition could include several of the 10 'Commandments' as dictated in the Bible. Much must be learned from these texts from a critical standpoint if self-determination can really mean something to the individual.

How much influence do you think that we (realistically) have over our lives?
How much of our lives are destined from nature (genetics) and how much from environment? Can you change yourself fundamentally through hard work, or is there a limit?

The fall of the Berlin Wall proved to the entire world that the equal sharing of other people's earnings to such a coerced extent, combined with the total refusal to consider basic human rights, creates a system which is almost certain to collapse by the will and protest of its own citizens. Vladimir Lenin, with the inspiration of Karl Marx and Trotsky, created a system which could not possibly achieve without the complete obedience and conformity of all of its citizens. There is certainly something about Socialism that people are attracted to; the idea that just for a bit of your money and your freedom, the system will take care of you. The welfare provided will make sure you are taken complete care of, but please ignore the catch, otherwise we may have to imprison you.

Good thoughts here, I tend to agree with most of what you're saying.
What is your opinion on the third way politics of the Scandinavian countries and (to an extent) the rest of Europe? Can the government interfere on the publics interests and still be benevolent and loved by its people? When does government cross the line?

Hypothetical situation: A person does not have health insurance. Government does not subsidize health care. Should this person be denied life-saving procedures? I ask because people that self-identify as libertarians seem split on this subject.

However, I am not saying that Russia under Vladimir Putin, by definition, is automatically a better system. But AT LEAST the people know where to point the finger. In the Soviet Union, you wouldn't have enough fingers to point at those to blame, the entire system was leeching you of your freedom.

Could you define "leeching you of your freedom" for me, please? :)

I expect several new waves of Atheism to rise up in the United States and Secularism in the Middle East respectively, particularly in Iran.

I think that will happen too. How do you see this impacting the world? Will people become less charitable? Less cultural? More superficial?

The biggest threats facing our world today is Religion. No question. Such ideologies have inspired quite a lot of very big organizations to crop up and rape, pillage, murder, commit genocide and brainwash hundreds of thousands of people across the globe. Not just the Middle-East. What I don't understand is how people, particularly in the West, seem to think this is not a threat. ISIS now controls half of Iraq, and large portions of Syria. Boko Haram are continually gaining territory and completely destroying entire village of people. The Lords' Resistance Army, led by the notorious Joseph Kony has spent many years in central Africa, forcing young boys to recruit more young boys, and forcing young women to be raped by those young boys. I don't need to explain the justifications and reasons why religion is to blame, I've done that in many posts, and a Google search should suffice. If you really want me to explain here, I may consider it. I am trying to make this a quick post.

I think Boko Haram, ISIL and The Lords' Resistance Army are political players, angry at the west for systematic oppression. What would you say to that point of view?

The world is getting neither better nor worse. Just make your own change, and don't brainwash anybody. You'll be fine ;)

I can get behind that! :)
 
With so many questions I'm not quite sure how I want to structure this. I'm an atheist, or agnostic, depending on how you want to look at it. I don't believe in a christian god, or deity, just as much as I'd wager christians don't believe in norse mythology. I believe in kindness and openness towards others. As such I don't think it guides me as someone believing in deity would, I believe in doing good for the sake of doing good. Not to take away from believers of any religion.

The notation of free will isn't really that important to me. Arguing that there is no free will, you could potentially motivate anything. Whether what we believe in is our own decisions or not doesn't really matter, though the idea can be a bit unsettling.

I'm ok with a free market and in a lot of ways I think it is beneficial to society, but it sure doesn't come without problems. Even with regulations both the environment and workers get exploited, just to name a few problems. I think the alternative that the government should govern all production is silly, but I don't think you need to go to that extent with socialism. I strongly believe in tax funded health care, education and local traffic.

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years? In a lot of ways, yes. In a lot of ways I think we are a lot more accepting and understanding. But to counter this I think we are in some regards just pushing boundaries. In a lot of ways I still think we as a society are moving in wrong directions. I don't see our concept of consumerism and capitalism as sustainable. Even despite having means to effectively sustain more with less, we do so exploiting other countries, using questionable power sources at best.

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today? I know it can be argued, but overpopulation and consumerism. At least in the direction we're going. I also agree with @JJJA that fanaticism and misinformation is detrimental to society. I don't think you answer this with religion, but with understanding and kindness - regardless if you are religious or not.
 
With so many questions I'm not quite sure how I want to structure this.

You guys don't need to answer all of the question, or any at all, I just want a healthy debate to happen :)

I'm an atheist, or agnostic, depending on how you want to look at it. I don't believe in a christian god, or deity, just as much as I'd wager christians don't believe in norse mythology. I believe in kindness and openness towards others. As such I don't think it guides me as someone believing in deity would, I believe in doing good for the sake of doing good. Not to take away from believers of any religion.

Doing good for the sake of doing good - awesome :)
Could you see yourself becoming a believer of a religion at some point? How open to religion are you?

The notation of free will isn't really that important to me. Arguing that there is no free will, you could potentially motivate anything. Whether what we believe in is our own decisions or not doesn't really matter, though the idea can be a bit unsettling.

I see what you mean. If I argued that free will didn't exist, that there is no alternative to your actions. Choice is an illusion. Your background and prior experiences shape you in such a way that you can't make any other choice or perform any other action that the ones you perform -- what would your counter-argument be?

I'm ok with a free market and in a lot of ways I think it is beneficial to society, but it sure doesn't come without problems. Even with regulations both the environment and workers get exploited, just to name a few problems. I think the alternative that the government should govern all production is silly, but I don't think you need to go to that extent with socialism. I strongly believe in tax funded health care, education and local traffic.

Is it OK for government to make very unpopular decisions in order to (potentially) improve the citizens quality of life?

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years? In a lot of ways, yes. In a lot of ways I think we are a lot more accepting and understanding. But to counter this I think we are in some regards just pushing boundaries. In a lot of ways I still think we as a society are moving in wrong directions. I don't see our concept of consumerism and capitalism as sustainable. Even despite having means to effectively sustain more with less, we do so exploiting other countries, using questionable power sources at best.

Great points. Do you think that the world has become a more secure place these last 20 years? Your country/part-of-the-world in particular?

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today? I know it can be argued, but overpopulation and consumerism. At least in the direction we're going. I also agree with @JJJA that fanaticism and misinformation is detrimental to society. I don't think you answer this with religion, but with understanding and kindness - regardless if you are religious or not.

Is renewable energy the answer to accommodating the growing population of the world? Is there a reasonable approach to dealing with expansive growth?
 
What do you believe in? Why?
Belief is a tool.

Does your faith inform your every day life? Can you imagine life without it?
I don't have faith and yes I can.

Is there such a thing as "free will"? What makes you believe what you believe?
Will is not free but it can be transcendent. Will is subject to desires and the rules of living things but through meta knowledge we can change the rules.

If you know you react a certain way to a stimuli, and you know how to change that stimuli, are you still bound by it?

Francis Fukuyama wrote a book that proclaimed the fall of the Berlin wall as the "end of history", since there is now little-to-no alternatives to capitalism and the free market. Is he right? Is there an alternative to the free market?
The black market. There will always be opposing forces.

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years?
Better for whom?

What major changes to society do you expect to happen during your life-time? Positive and negative!
More people will lose their selves and more people will find their selves.

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today?
Ourselves.

Is the world getting better or worse at the moment?
That depends on who is looking.
 
Hm.

Everything I wrote has been deleted. Sucks.
 
I believe in balance and the circle of life. I belive in the 4 Aspects of Being (my fanzy term)...emotional, intellectual, physical and spiritual. Spiritual does not mean religion, it involves all those choices we make and the expressions that flow from them. Choosing to be helpful, courteous and the like are imo spiritual expressions...everything falls into one, often multiple Aspects, all our choices and the life experience we garner. Our goal is to find a way to balance these Aspects, to grow in our understanding of how we govern our life with our choices. Seek balance.

Where Something meets Nothing is where life exists. Draw a circle. What is contained inside the circle is defined, it is something...what IS Known is under the providence of the Mother. What is outside the circle is undefined, it is nothing....what IS Unknown is under the providence of the Father. Balance exists...that thin line, the circle is where life is able to exist between the two opposing forces and also thusly explains why we are all interconnected.

Additionally we each have our own circles of suasion. At our most basic we are the center of our universe, as we grow we begin to see our connection to family (the familiar Other) and next friends (the unfamiliar Other)...most stop here. But further along you can learn to understand and include tribal (if you have such cultural influence), city, state, nation, world, universe as you travel the Path.

In Native Tradition, you do not give Knowledge unless someone asks. You Seek many things, be sure you are ready to Listen because the Journey can be rough.
 
It's time!

What do you believe in? Why?
I believe in a Christian God who loves and guides. In my view he is benevolent, omnipotent, omnisentient, and the epitome of morality and other "good".

Does your faith inform your every day life? Can you imagine life without it?
not an a day to day basis, but in times when my anxiety is high, or I am worried about something I can't help for whatever reasons, it is a true blessing. I could imagine life within my belief, but I feel that I would be a lot less hopeful.

Is there such a thing as "free will"? What makes you believe what you believe?
I argue yes, and also agree with determinism. I have written papers on this, and I do think they are compatible ideologies.

Francis Fukuyama wrote a book that proclaimed the fall of the Berlin wall as the "end of history", since there is now little-to-no alternatives to capitalism and the free market. Is he right? Is there an alternative to the free market?
I don't have major interests in politics and economics, but yes there are alternatives. Practical? some. Effective? some. Better? well, that's up for serious debate.....

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years?
I would say definitely. Then again, I don't exactly remember what 20 years ago was like....It was probably pretty traumatic for me...

But to be serious, I would say yes and no. In a lot of ways, there is a lot of bad that was then and still is now. In other ways, there are some worse things around, and in other ways still (I think more so this) things have gotten better. Looooong way to go though...

What major changes to society do you expect to happen during your life-time? Positive and negative!

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today?

Is the world getting better or worse at the moment?
I'm not really seeing the philosophy and religion in these questions......
 
I would say definitely. Then again, I don't exactly remember what 20 years ago was like....It was probably pretty traumatic for me...
Traumatic, you say?

babykicking.jpg
 
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It's time!
It is? Why would that be?

What do you believe in? Why?

I don’t really have a set of “beliefs” that I would say I adhere to. I rather like the line of questioning that The Manifesto for a Post-Materialist Science asks - http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
I think to discount ideas of theism and there being such a thing as a “soul” is short-sighted at best, at worst it is purposefully chosen ignorance to fit their already fully-formed belief system - which is just as bad as being overly theistic IMO.
I have my subjective experiences that have lead me to make certain conclusions that our reality is far more bizarre than we know.

Does your faith inform your every day life? Can you imagine life without it?
Faith would be defined by people in different ways….to me, faith is the amount of spiritual control you have over your environment…yourself included.
It is part of life so to separate it would drastically change life as well. We all have faith that when we shut our eyes everything is still where we thought it was a moment ago, we have faith that today our heart will not stop, we have faith that someday something important to you will improve or come true, we have to have a certain amount of faith in ourselves to function as adult human beings. Faith can mean many things like I said.
So I can imagine life without it, and it would be robotic, but perhaps that is only my inability to grasp such an intangible question.
“Everything you have seen, every flower, every bird, every rock, will disappear and will become dust, but the fact that you have seen them cannot disappear”. Zen philosophy - That is faith.
Is there such a thing as "free will"? What makes you believe what you believe?

I think so, because I also think that our brains and minds are separate from one another, or at least have that ability. The current paradigm of science says that our brains are incapable of actual “free will”, that we are running a series of biological programs in our head that have already predetermined how we will react to this or that or what choices we will make - we only have the illusion of free will through the deception of the brain itself, that consciousness (in the definition of being able to self-reflect), is just the nature of the complexity built into the system and is a fluke in some circles of thought.
Once again, certain subjective experiences have shaped my view on this issue that would difficult to explain to someone without that background.

Francis Fukuyama wrote a book that proclaimed the fall of the Berlin wall as the "end of history", since there is now little-to-no alternatives to capitalism and the free market. Is he right? Is there an alternative to the free market?

The free market will eat itself alive unregulated.
This is what is happening in the US right now. Capitalism eventually replaces Kings and Queens with the insanely rich and powerful. Nothing changes.
T. Pickety predicts, along with even some of the very rich, that if the issue of income inequality is not seriously addressed then there will be guillotines in the streets again. I happen to agree with him.

Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years?

No.

What major changes to society do you expect to happen during your life-time? Positive and negative!

I expect climate change and global warming to be addressed seriously by those with the power to make significant changes.
I expect serious times ahead for the US in the next decade.

What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today?

War. Warmongers. War-profitters. Banks. Uneducated people. Conservative Religious Ideology. The United States in general.

Is the world getting better or worse at the moment?

I will have to go with worse currently.
 
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Is this a debate or an inquiry?
 
Is this a debate or an inquiry?

I think the idea is…once the responses are given then when someone says something that inevitably someone will disagree with/take offense at the debate/penis sizing contest will start.

Should be fun.
 
Was sent a few questions to answer multiple choice by a Congressman regarding the running of our country lately. I left all the answers blank and asked him if he really thought answering his questions would help when everything changes every day.
 
I think the idea is…once the responses are given then when someone says something that inevitably someone will disagree with/take offense at the debate/penis sizing contest will start.Should be fun.
someone would jump in and stop the disagreement immediately, someone who's uninvolved could get hurt feelings.
 
It's time!What do you believe in? Why?Does your faith inform your every day life? Can you imagine life without it?Is there such a thing as "free will"? What makes you believe what you believe?Francis Fukuyama wrote a book that proclaimed the fall of the Berlin wall as the "end of history", since there is now little-to-no alternatives to capitalism and the free market. Is he right? Is there an alternative to the free market?Has the world become a better place in the last 20 years?What major changes to society do you expect to happen during your life-time? Positive and negative!What are the biggest threats facing our world and society today?Is the world getting better or worse at the moment?
I want to believe in justice and mercy and that people change for the better. And when I'm at work I try to let that guide me you giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. But really that is very rare. People mostly stay the same.Living life makes me believe this. The law of the jungle is anarchy and capitalism. Civilization is working together. In the future I hope to see office fashion take a turn to be more comfortable. I hope to see ascots make a comeback. I hope that solar energy takes off. More trees everywhere. I hope we don't kill the rest of the animals because that will suck. The biggest threat to the world is that it doesn't need us and we are going to take it out with us.
 
I think the idea is…once the responses are given then when someone says something that inevitably someone will disagree with/take offense at the debate/penis sizing contest will start.

Should be fun.
:m190::m179:

It is? Why would that be?



I don’t really have a set of “beliefs” that I would say I adhere to. I rather like the line of questioning that The Manifesto for a Post-Materialist Science asks - http://opensciences.org/about/manifesto-for-a-post-materialist-science
I think to discount ideas of theism and there being such a thing as a “soul” is short-sighted at best, at worst it is purposefully chosen ignorance to fit their already fully-formed belief system - which is just as bad as being overly theistic IMO.
I have my subjective experiences that have lead me to make certain conclusions that our reality is far more bizarre than we know.


Faith would be defined by people in different ways….to me, faith is the amount of spiritual control you have over your environment…yourself included.
It is part of life so to separate it would drastically change life as well. We all have faith that when we shut our eyes everything is still where we thought it was a moment ago, we have faith that today our heart will not stop, we have faith that someday something important to you will improve or come true, we have to have a certain amount of faith in ourselves to function as adult human beings. Faith can mean many things like I said.
So I can imagine life without it, and it would be robotic, but perhaps that is only my inability to grasp such an intangible question.
“Everything you have seen, every flower, every bird, every rock, will disappear and will become dust, but the fact that you have seen them cannot disappear”. Zen philosophy - That is faith.

I think so, because I also think that our brains and minds are separate from one another, or at least have that ability. The current paradigm of science says that our brains are incapable of actual “free will”, that we are running a series of biological programs in our head that have already predetermined how we will react to this or that or what choices we will make - we only have the illusion of free will through the deception of the brain itself, that consciousness (in the definition of being able to self-reflect), is just the nature of the complexity built into the system and is a fluke in some circles of thought.
And I argue that is just a misconception formed by psychologists trying to do philosophy...and failing....lol. I mean sure, if you mean some sort of extreme free will that claims we can act wholly contrary to the functions of the world if we so willed it. That certainly seems crazy, but free will is not such a strict term.

Once again, certain subjective experiences have shaped my view on this issue that would difficult to explain to someone without that background.



The free market will eat itself alive unregulated.
This is what is happening in the US right now. Capitalism eventually replaces Kings and Queens with the insanely rich and powerful. Nothing changes.
T. Pickety predicts, along with even some of the very rich, that if the issue of income inequality is not seriously addressed then there will be guillotines in the streets again. I happen to agree with him.
What if, as history plays out, we could discover within a capitalist system a society reaches a kind of "critical point" where the social contracts demand a kind of economic reset. While that may result in some sort of aggression, and redistribution, then restarting the system. One cannot deny that capitalism creates an excellent environment for growth until the separation becomes so great that the system potentially stalls.



:m035:
"please sir, spare change?"


I expect climate change and global warming to be addressed seriously by those with the power to make significant changes.
I expect serious times ahead for the US in the next decade.
For everyone, but I do agree. Climate change needs to be halted and reversed. Don't know if that's possible though....Hope it is.



War. Warmongers. War-profitters. Banks. Uneducated people. Conservative Religious Ideology. The United States in general.
Ok, now that I have a problem with. Conservative religious ideology is not inherently bad. In fact, true conservative religious ideology creates a stick to your own area, leave us be attitude. It's the extremists that lead to things like fascism. But liberalism is guilty of the same thing. While true liberal ideology creates a "we help each all each other" attitude, its extremists create communism and socialism. Those are similarly disastrous. But I don't really want to get into a political debate. I'm not very good at those, and that also isn't the point of this thread....
 
:m190::m179:


And I argue that is just a misconception formed by psychologists trying to do philosophy...and failing....lol. I mean sure, if you mean some sort of extreme free will that claims we can act wholly contrary to the functions of the world if we so willed it. That certainly seems crazy, but free will is not such a strict term.


What if, as history plays out, we could discover within a capitalist system a society reaches a kind of "critical point" where the social contracts demand a kind of economic reset. While that may result in some sort of aggression, and redistribution, then restarting the system. One cannot deny that capitalism creates an excellent environment for growth until the separation becomes so great that the system potentially stalls.




:m035:
"please sir, spare change?"



For everyone, but I do agree. Climate change needs to be halted and reversed. Don't know if that's possible though....Hope it is.




Ok, now that I have a problem with. Conservative religious ideology is not inherently bad. In fact, true conservative religious ideology creates a stick to your own area, leave us be attitude. It's the extremists that lead to things like fascism. But liberalism is guilty of the same thing. While true liberal ideology creates a "we help each all each other" attitude, its extremists create communism and socialism. Those are similarly disastrous. But I don't really want to get into a political debate. I'm not very good at those, and that also isn't the point of this thread....

An interesting article on the current paradigm of science’s answer to the free will question - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/proceed-your-own-risk/201311/do-we-have-free-will

That isn’t what I feel to be right though.
I think we do have free will and can explain further if you like.

Okay…I will rephrase my response to be more specific - extreme conservative religious ideology (and I’m not just picking on the Christians, ISIS is terrible).
I think everyone should be able to believe and practice whatever religious/spiritual beliefs they hold true so long as it doesn’t impact someone else unwillingly in negative ways. i.e. - Regardless of your religious stance on Gay rights, your religious beliefs cannot and should not dictate or influence the law of the land unless it is an overall general societal moral viewpoint of that time.
(and even then, those sometimes need to be challenged)
And yes…there is the opposite extreme to this as well.
I just find it funny that people in this country who consider themselves Christian feel persecuted.
Really? Who is stopping anyone from doing anything? OMG, you have to bake a cake for a gay couple….God will surely send you to Hell for that one.
What would happen if a Muslim bakery in the US refused to serve Christians? Hahahaha….they would probably be murdered and the business burned to the ground.
No Christian in the US is persecuted.
They don’t know what persecuted is then.
 
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