Changes to the Bible

[the]

Usually if you are discussing the Bible with a disgusting unbeliever (just kidding heathen scum!) they will say something like: "The Bible has been changed 1000's of times since it was written." Which sure that makes some sense I guess, it just seems like something that could have happened. But what did the Bible used to say? Like, what was the story of David and Goliath origionally like? If it didn't change much, what was it like 300 years ago?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Usually if you are discussing the Bible with a disgusting unbeliever (just kidding heathen scum!) they will say something like: "The Bible has been changed 1000's of times since it was written." Which sure that makes some sense I guess, it just seems like something that could have happened. But what did the Bible used to say? Like, what was the story of David and Goliath origionally like? If it didn't change much, what was it like 300 years ago?

Lets talk about the Old Testament aka The Bible BEOFRE it was rewritten to fit closer to the times. What it USED to say is it was ok to have slaves, ok to beat your slaves, ok to have sex slaves, ok to rape and kill other people so long as it was done in the name of God. Really, no one is living by the teachings of the bible today then so everyone is going to hell.

Huh...I for one always believed that an all powerful God could use words that would stand the test of time. You know, where they didnt have to be reinterpreted and rewritten all the time.

 

[Stu]

300 years ago?

um, pretty much the same

 

[the]

Lets talk about the Old Testament aka The Bible BEOFRE it was rewritten to fit closer to the times. What it USED to say is it was ok to have slaves, ok to beat your slaves, ok to have sex slaves, ok to rape and kill other people so long as it was done in the name of God. Really, no one is living by the teachings of the bible today then so everyone is going to hell.

Thats fine but for my small brain lets stick to David and Goliath. After that lets move on to something else. I'm just trying to find some evidence without doing the Googling myself and having a delightful discussion in the process. Did Goliath kill David in the prior versions?

But as a side note, my Bible still says slaves are ok in the OT so the case for the bible changing is kind of bad considering they left all the wrong parts in.

 

[Stu]

um.... If Goliath killed David in prior versions then there would be no psalms....

 

[Stu]

But as a side note, my Bible still says slaves are ok in the OT so the case for the bible changing is kind of bad considering they left all the wrong parts in..

interestingly the idea of "slave" is the basis of many Judeo-Christian attitudes of the relationship between the believer and the divine.

 

[Cornerstone]

Much more subtle than that.

You can have a lot of wordplay in English that just won't translate easily. Idioms are a good example and Jesus speaks in analogy all the time.
I do not think that all of the references to gods or just one god necessarily all speak about the same Alpha and Omega/Unmoved Mover.
I don't think it is impossible that less mundane things have happened to people on earth in the past.
The idea that many of these books, especially the more brutal and un-Godlike ones, could have been written about idols that were being worshipped.

If a being had God-like powers and no self-awareness...could it not communicate with people, do vicious things and have a book written praising itself?
I'm not saying it is all about that but I think it has become compromised somewhere along the line and the fact that what would be the entire 'montage scene' of Jesus' life is just flat out missing is insane and very suspicious. The Dead Sea Scrolls, especially the Gospel of Thomas, are good to read if you want insight into the Christian church before the Romans made it 'official'. That was clearly a political move.

Plus translations into translations.

It was only when literacy improved across Europe that all the 'peace and love' side of Jesus was exposed. That was kept hidden!
We have never been given a chance to understand what Jesus was trying to say because even Protestantism is derived from this ritualistic religion.

 

[Stu]

um...not googling here but I believe the dead sea scrolls have no mention of Jesus, i think you are thinking of the nag hamadi library.

 

[Skarekrow]

I wrote a big paper in college about "Why there is no Hell" (persuasive essay)
It was around 40+ pages so obviously I cannot post that here, nor am I exactly sure if it even exists anywhere outside my mind for that matter...lol.
The word "Hell" never existed and is in fact a heathen word. It's origins were from the daughter of the Norse God Odin, who ruled over the underworld named Hel.
In the middle age Europe the name became synonymous with anything related to anything underground and calling your root cellar (to preserve your food) Hell was not unheard of...how it got the second 'L' I don't know.
The original words poorly translated were Gehenna, Tartarus, Sheol, and Hades. Gehenna was a burning trash heap that Jesus liken the hearts of certain men to.
Tartarus - means "abyss"
While Sheol and Hades meant underworld, where the "shades" and EVERYONE went.
So why did these four words that mean different things turn into a land of everlasting burning lakes of feces and exponential torture? That wasn't their meaning.
If God is said to have created and control of all things which he is said to have, then not only would he have created such a place but is also the one allowing the everlasting torture. No matter what sin has been perpetrated there will come a point to where the punishment will outweigh the crime (it may take some time for certain cases), and then Hell and God would be considered "unjust" Which is another attribute of God...he is Just.
If I have a huge pit in some land I own and people must pass through said land to get from point A to B, I have a responsibility to warn people of this, so I may put up signs saying "Stay on the path, huge pit where you will die!". Of course people maybe think they know better, they may think they need a short-cut, maybe the signs fade away...etc. They wander off the path is the point, man being man. Someone will fall in. So I have alarms and cameras, etc. I have knowledge of someone falling in...I can hear and see them. So here is the question: Am I justified to say "I put up signs, you didn't stay on the path, too bad." No I am not just. Even if someone were to purposefully throw themselves bodily into my pit while damning me and my house...I cannot justify leaving them with a broken body at the bottom. It is just wrong on a basic level.
What petty sin in this life would justify an eternity of torture? There is none. Even as Jesus died he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do." Wouldn't that be about the worst sin imaginable...killing Jesus? And yet they were forgiven.
The word "Hell" has been twisted over the centuries to control the masses with fear, it has been turned into something it is NOT, which is unlimited torture. Dante's version of "Hell" has come to be the most common vision conjured up in one's mind when the word is used. Do you think that was by accident?

That better? [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] lololol

 

[Stu]

][/FONT]I wrote a big paper in college about "Why there is no Hell" (persuasive essay)
It was around 40+ pages so obviously I cannot post that here, nor am I exactly sure if it even exists anywhere outside my mind for that matter...lol.
The word "Hell" never existed and is in fact a heathen word. It's origins were from the daughter of the Norse God Odin, who ruled over the underworld named Hel.
In the middle age Europe the name became synonymous with anything related to anything underground and calling your root cellar (to preserve your food) Hell was not unheard of...how it got the second 'L' I don't know.
The original words poorly translated were Gehenna, Tartarus, Sheol, and Hades. Gehenna was a burning trash heap that Jesus liken the hearts of certain men to.
Tartarus - means "abyss"
While Sheol and Hades meant underworld, where the "shades" and EVERYONE went.
So why did these four words that mean different things turn into a land of everlasting burning lakes of feces and exponential torture? That wasn't their meaning?
If God is said to have created and control of all things which he is said to have, then not only would he have created such a place but is also the one allow the everlasting torture. No matter what sin has been perpetrated there will come a point to where the punishment will outweigh the crime (it may take some time for certain cases), and then Hell and God would be considered "unjust" Which is another attribute of God...he is Just.
If I have a huge pit in some land I own and people must pass through said land to get from point A to B, I have a responsibility to warn people of this, so I may put up signs saying "Stay on the path, huge pit where you will die!". Of course people maybe think they know better, they may think they need a short-cut, maybe the signs fade away...etc. They wander off the path is the point, man being man. Someone will fall in. So I have alarms and cameras, etc. I have knowledge of someone falling in...I can hear and see them. So here is the question: Am I justified to say "I put up signs, you didn't stay on the path, too bad." No I am not just. Even if someone were to purposefully throw themselves bodily into my pit while damning me and my house...I cannot justify leaving them with a broken body at the bottom. It is just wrong on a basic level.
What petty sin in this life would justify an eternity of torture? There is none. Even as Jesus died he said "Father forgive them for they no not what they do." Wouldn't that be about the worst sin imaginable...killing Jesus? And yet they were forgiven.
The word "Hell" has been twisted over the centuries to control the masses with fear, it has been turned into something it is NOT, which is unlimited torture. Dante's version of "Hell" has come to be the most common vision conjured up in one's mind when the word is used. Do you think that was by accident?

(really gettin tired of the big red print....)so kinda like a homeowners legal responsibility to put a fence around her pool.

Isn't that just projecting human mores onto the Divine?

 

[this is only temporary]

Wasn't it all oral to start out with and then the powers that be had a big argument about which parts were going to be left in? And they chucked a bunch of stories they didn't like?

David and Goliath probably started out as a story told by people sitting around a campfire (before there was TV and they all got terribly bored in the evenings) and the story simply got passed along until someone finally decided to write it down. There were probably a lot of different versions told, I would imagine, with different details.

I always thought that general process was how the whole bible got passed along and eventually written down.

 

[Stu]

did they tell stories before campfires?

 

[this is only temporary]

No, it was too damn cold. And they were busy eating raw eggs and bugs, and roots and things, so had no time for telling stories.

 

[Stu]

maybe the whole falling into hell thing comes from falling out of trees while sleeping

 

[Skarekrow]

maybe the whole falling into hell thing comes from falling out of trees while sleeping

It just doesn't make sense in my mind that God having the attributes of being Loving above all else, Just, Omnipotent (power over all), Omniscient (knowledge of all), that he would leave your soul to rot in Hell. Not only that but it brings forth the argument as to whether God created evil/sin. Believing in the version of Hell as everlasting torture goes against the basic attributes of God being Just and Loving. According to the mythos, Jesus died for the sins of ALL mankind, past, present, future....there was no contract you must adhere to...it was a sacrifice for all sins.

 

[the]

Wasn't it all oral to start out with and then the powers that be had a big argument about which parts were going to be left in? And they chucked a bunch of stories they didn't like?

David and Goliath probably started out as a story told by people sitting around a campfire (before there was TV and they all got terribly bored in the evenings) and the story simply got passed along until someone finally decided to write it down. There were probably a lot of different versions told, I would imagine, with different details.

I always thought that general process was how the whole bible got passed along and eventually written down.

Do you have something to back that up besides speculation?

 

[this is only temporary]

Only history, and what I've learned about the development of literacy and written languages. Apparently most people thousands of years ago actually couldn't read at all, so things had to be told to them orally, but you can look that up quite easily if you like. Other than that it is pure speculation.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I wrote a big paper in college about "Why there is no Hell" [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] lololol

Interesting? Do you believe that? For lack of a better word to describe it, I do believe a person can be in hell within their own mind. Primarily because I have been there, done it.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Usually if you are discussing the Bible with a disgusting unbeliever (just kidding heathen scum!) they will say something like: "The Bible has been changed 1000's of times since it was written." Which sure that makes some sense I guess, it just seems like something that could have happened. But what did the Bible used to say? Like, what was the story of David and Goliath origionally like? If it didn't change much, what was it like 300 years ago?

Hmmm... I am disgusting and I dont believe. However I dont believe I am disgusting for the fact I dont believe.

 

[magister343]

If you want to get an idea of how the torah changed over time, you should compare the Masoretic text with the Samaritan Torah as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint. (The Greek translation was made centuries before vowel points were introduced into Hebrew and so may reflect an older tradition of how to interpret the consonant-only text.)

Most of the changes are very minor and have no theological significance. (Differing guesses on how to interpolate the vowels makes a much bigger difference.) Still it is pretty clear that the original would have been somewhere between the Jewish and the Samaritan versions.

I wouldn't say that the Samaritan version is right in insisting that God must be worshiped only at Mount Gerizim, but they are probably right in identifying that location as opposed to Mount Zion as Mount Moriah. Otherwise you have a confusing situation where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac on a mountain in the remote wilderness that also happened to be in the center of a major city that already existed and was being ruled by Melchizedek.


The Samaritan version is still written using the Paleo-Hebrew abjad (an alphabet without any way of expressing vowels), which the Jews abandoned in favor of a stylized form of Aramaic script a little over 2000 years ago.


It was originally transmitted orally before it was written down. Moses is described as reciting all the Torah for the people to hear, not writing anything more than the ten commandments. This does not however justify orthodox Jewish notions of the oral tradition. The bible is states clearly that the Torah was lost for generations, and that when a copy of the text was found in the temple people were surprised to find what it contained. The oral account would not have survived that period intact.




Far more distortion happens during translation and exegesis than during the transmission and copying of the texts in the original languages. A lot of misunderstandings were introduced by Augustine, who somehow came to be seen as a foremost authority on the bible despite flunking Greek and never even trying to learn Hebrew. He is the one who popularized the doctrine of Eternal Damnation (which was already dogma in his native North Africa, but considered no more valid than conditional immortality or universal reconciliation elsewhere) and insisted that phrases like "unto the ages of the ages" were idioms referring to infinite rather than extremely long finite periods of time.


Gehenna was the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, which at one point had been a cult site where Canaanites and some Israelites killed their own children by fire in sacrifice to the false god Moloch. In order to prevent this most evil cult from coming back, the site was made into Jerusalem's garbage dumb, where refuse was incinerated day and night. It was also a place to dump bodies of animals and of humans whose sins were so vile that they were considered unworthy of a proper burial. It was not a place of torture, but a place to destroy the last remains of things that no one wanted to think about.

"Hell" literally means "concealed" and is actually a decent translation of Hades, which literally means "the unseen." We tend to think of Hades in terms of Greek myths about where the souls of the dead (especially the wicked) go, but it had broader meanings that that. It could refer to anything hidden below the surface of the earth. The god Hades presided not only over the dead, but also over the extraction of mineral wealth and the burying of seeds in order that they might grow. Descending into hades does not have to have any sort of mystical meaning pertaining to a departed soul. It can refer quite literally to a body being physically buried in the grave.

Sheal literally means "pit," and referred primarily to the grave in which a dead body was buried. Some groups of Jews (particularly Hellenized ones) pictured some sort of afterlife for the shades of the departed, but the book of Ecclesiastes makes it pretty clear that the dead are not conscious.


Traditional definitions of omnipotence have been limited to only those things which are logically possible. Similarly, some prefer to define omniscience as knowing all things that are possible to know, and posit that the future is not yet determined as so impossible to know (although a full knowledge of the past would allow for some pretty accurate predictions, and omnipotence would allow one to make his predictions come true.)

The only part of the bible that actually describes God as omnipotent is probably a poor translation of a term better rendered as "self-sufficient."