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Belief Questions for Christians

j654dgj7

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Jun 8, 2012
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Hey Christians and every one else reading this thread,

I am a great admirer of the philosophy and humanity of your religion. I believe that it is one of the most important fundamental parts of western civilization, and a very good building block for equality.
My question is about your faith itself, and how you can be a steadfast believer in Christianity as the only way to salvation.
Christianity as a religion has undergone hundreds of changes from its beginnings as a Jewish cult in the middle east, to a mystical religion of Greece and then morphed closer into what we believe that it is now.

1) Do you believe that previous ways of celebrating Jesus and his life were wrong?
2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?
3) What makes you think that the current way of celebrating Jesus as the son of God is the correct way in the eyes of God?
 
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...how you can be a steadfast believer in Christianity as the only way to salvation.

Hi Vandyke--

At the outset, I am a Christian. I'm rather serious about it too. But I'm a "liberal" Christian and don't believe I have to check my brain at the door to enter a church...or enter a discussion about religion or Christianity. So I don't believe that the Bible is the literal word of God or is inerrant or "is all we need" to live in today's world. That's just silly. And the people who say those things don't really believe it either or they'd be living a lot differently. So, I don't believe that one has to be a Christian or a particular brand of Christian in order to obtain "salvation." (Define that term!)

What many Christians forget is that Jesus did not expect to be worshiped as an entity solely unto himself, but to be a pathway to a more meaningful relationship with God. Despite the "I am the way, the truth..." scriptures, Jesus' mission was to bring people to God.

I love to quote my late wife, who held two medical degrees and three undergraduate degrees and was a deeply committed Christian. "God's people seem to be a whole lot pickier than God."
 
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1) Do you believe that previous ways of celebrating Jesus and his life were wrong?
2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?
3) What makes you think that the current way of celebrating Jesus as the son of God is the correct way in the eyes of God?

I belive that God has His own way. Everything what we do is more or less wandering in attempt to find His paths. I belive that He does not mind our wandering, but our efforts.
 
Christ and His Word hasn't changed. It's how people view and practice Christianity that has changed. The Bible as God's Word stands as is, and He said nothing should be removed or taken away from it. It is complete. People choose to follow one aspect but ignore or leave out others. But He intended for the entire Word to be taken as is. Christ was not a prophet or path. He IS the way, truth, and life. He's not some bridge. He is the journey and destination. People can like or dislike various aspects of Christianity but that's separate from what God has said through His Word that we should do or feel if we are truly following Him. We are accountable to Him. He's not supposed to change to fit us. He made us. He knows what we are about. If the focus is on the world, and pleasing the world, then it's going to be tough to fully understand what it truly means to be a Christian. Reading the Bible is not about picking and choosing what we like or don't like. There is a reason for everything mentioned in the Word of God. The difficulty is following this belief in a world which often lives to contradict everything said in Word of God. If Christianity is seen as just a bunch of dos and don'ts or a "religion", then the point is missed. Being a Christian is not about following some set of principles just because. It is meant to be a purposeful and fulfilling life starting with a unique personal relationship with God that would last beyond this life.
 
Christ and His Word hasn't changed. It's how people view and practice Christianity that has changed.

That is, of course, completely true. The only problem is that the first Bible wasn't written until around the year 300, and the modern Bibles that we see today wasn't collected before the 13th century. Before Martin Luther it was only available in Greek and Hebrew, so most people had no clue what the Bible told them. Christianity isn't uniformly practiced around the world, just take protestant and Catholic differences and differing opinions on how to practice Christ's word.



The Bible as God's Word stands as is, and He said nothing should be removed or taken away from it. It is complete. People choose to follow one aspect but ignore or leave out others. But He intended for the entire Word to be taken as is. Christ was not a prophet or path. He IS the way, truth, and life.v

What is the complete Bible? The Protestant Bible holds sixty-six books, while the Ethiopian Orthodox Church Bible holds eighty-one books. The problem with the Bible, as I see it, is that it contains a lot of books from the Tanakh (Jewish Bible) which contains most of the objectionable material that you mention. One of Jesus' main missions was to rebel against the Pharisees, the Rabbis of Judea, who held on to the Tanakh very firmly and said that every law was extremely important to follow. Jesus said that they did not represent God or his vision for the world.

He's not some bridge. He is the journey and destination. People can like or dislike various aspects of Christianity but that's separate from what God has said through His Word that we should do or feel if we are truly following Him. We are accountable to Him. He's not supposed to change to fit us. He made us. He knows what we are about. If the focus is on the world, and pleasing the world, then it's going to be tough to fully understand what it truly means to be a Christian. Reading the Bible is not about picking and choosing what we like or don't like. There is a reason for everything mentioned in the Word of God. The difficulty is following this belief in a world which often lives to contradict everything said in Word of God. If Christianity is seen as just a bunch of dos and don'ts or a "religion", then the point is missed. Being a Christian is not about following some set of principles just because. It is meant to be a purposeful and fulfilling life starting with a unique personal relationship with God that would last beyond this life.

I completely understand and respect what you are saying. Are you worried that the practices of being a Christian has changed so much from the days of animal sacrifices in the name of Jesus Christ in Judea? Do you feel, on faith basis, that you're representing Jesus in a way that he would appreciate? I'm honestly asking, not accusing you of anything.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, all of you! Would love to hear from more people. I'm honestly fascinated by the subject.
 
@vandyke

I grew up with the Protestant Bible (66 books) and I think that was suffiicient in reflecting the most important things God wants His people to know and understand.

Are you worried that the practices of being a Christian has changed so much from the days of animal sacrifices in the name of Jesus Christ in Judea? Do you feel, on faith basis, that you're representing Jesus in a way that he would appreciate?

People serve God in different ways. Animal sacrifices were done as a way to show appreciation to God for providing food, guidance, and protection for His people throughout the journey from the beginning through the desert and beyond to the promised land. It wasn't about simply required sacrifices. It was meant to be a show of gratitude for God providing for His people through very difficult times.

Whether I'm representing Jesus is a personal subject. I think each person has to reconcile with their own minds and conscience whether they are following what God said as He intended. We have flaws and make mistakes everyday. Being a Christian is not or was ever about being perfect since the only perfect person was/is Christ. I will not represent myself as a perfect follower or any sort of saint. I have my personal struggles with faith and difficulty with living as He wants everyday but in the end, I know He definitely cares about us just as I know I am accountable to Him, whatever the result.
 
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Hey Christians and every one else reading this thread,

I am a great admirer of the philosophy and humanity of your religion. I believe that it is one of the most important fundamental parts of western civilization, and a very good building block for equality.
My question is about your faith itself, and how you can be a steadfast believer in Christianity as the only way to salvation.
Christianity as a religion has undergone hundreds of changes from its beginnings as a Jewish cult in the middle east, to a mystical religion of Greece and then morphed closer into what we believe that it is now.

1) Do you believe that previous ways of celebrating Jesus and his life were wrong?
2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?
3) What makes you think that the current way of celebrating Jesus as the son of God is the correct way in the eyes of God?

Sorry, but you sound like some of the Jewish people that said He was a great teacher, but not this or that. Was He or was He not a great teacher? If you doubt the things He taught, how can you call Him a great teacher?
 
Sorry, but you sound like some of the Jewish people that said He was a great teacher, but not this or that. Was He or was He not a great teacher? If you doubt the things He taught, how can you call Him a great teacher?

I think there might be a misunderstanding here, I didn't mean to drag Jesus as a person into doubt. There's no doubt that what he said was beautiful and transcendently true.
The questions that I raised were meant to answer my curiosity of what your personal standpoint on the religious worship of Jesus through time is.
 
To be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
I love the verse regarding the gnat and the camel. Why? I do not bother myself any longer with the little things because the whole picture has been revealed. Teaches not to look back when plowing, lest you plow a crooked line. I, personally, do not wish to change my attitude and wonderful feeling right now trying to debate what you have mentioned, nor do I see things back then the way you speak of them. As they say, Shalom.
 
I do not bother myself any longer with the little things because the whole picture has been revealed.

You're not worried that the picture has been changed so much that it is no longer representative of Jesus' visions and original ideas for his followers?

As they say, Shalom.

Shalom aleichem to you too. I'm not Jewish, but peace in any language is worth congratulating :)
 
1) Do you believe that previous ways of celebrating Jesus and his life were wrong?
Yes, many of them were wrong. But where deceit and darkness is, the Light shines much clearly and in His full glory.
The true Christians, those who seek God in spirit and truth, were the Church of Christ, untouched by false doctrines and false philosophies. The glory of God can pass this test too.

2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?
No, not at all. Of course there are false doctrines and false Christs, but the Truth always shines and His glory is shown.

3) What makes you think that the current way of celebrating Jesus as the son of God is the correct way in the eyes of God?
The Bible, and also the inner assurence of any believer, the Holy Spirit.
The old truth of the Bible is this: Jesus Christ has come to lift the sins of the world, so that people can have eternal life.
 
2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?

Christianity, and any other religion for that matter, can't help but change as society and culture changes. Sometimes it's good; sometimes not. In studying Christian history, as apparently you have as well, I am struck by how the cloistered monastic communities seem to end up being the repositories of sanity when battling popes, the Crusades and inter-denominational warfare breaks out, perverting core Christian values. What emerges from these monasteries doesn't just bring Christianity back to its starting point, but sets it in a new direction, e.g., St. Francis, St. Benedict.

I'm also fascinated by how religious conversations can sometimes seem adversarial but, in fact, have much agreement. It often comes down to a person's belief "in" something vs. a person's belief "about" something.
 
[MENTION=9054]BrightWhiteHeart[/MENTION]

I think God is interested in every aspect of our lives — not just our heart.

“Love the Lord your God with all your HEART (source of our thoughts words and deeds) and with all your SOUL (the centre of our emotions) and with all your STRENGTH (our entire physical being) and with all your MIND (intellect).” Mark 12:30


Interesting and fun link below in relation to some of the "myths" in the Bible

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZWG4EG0jZc
 
[MENTION=9054]BrightWhiteHeart[/MENTION]

I think God is interested in every aspect of our lives – not just our heart.

“Love the Lord your God with all your HEART (source of our thoughts words and deeds) and with all your SOUL (the centre of our emotions) and with all your STRENGTH (our entire physical being) and with all your MIND (intellect).” Mark 12:30

With what you just said in mind, don't you feel that it is interesting how the Bible is worded? The old testament scriptures are very straight-forward and literal, yet many of the New Testament scriptures are very broad and open to interpretation. How do you, for example, definitively define how you love with all of your heart and soul? What are the limits of that statement? You and I can put up, what we would call, natural limits to that statement, while an Ethiopian Christian would read that line in a completely different context. Reza Azlan wrote a book about the life of Jesus called "Zealot" which is very interesting indeed. He argues that the New Testament constructed and told the story of Jesus in a way that he could be accepted by everybody and fitted into any culture easily. That could explain how Christianity has proven to be so flexible and applicable all around the world.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you feel that it is okay that Jesus and the New Testament is written in a some what vague language, and how can you feel certain that the way that you are worshipping Jesus is the "correct way"? How can we, for example, no longer take parts of the old testament literally that we used to? What are the limits of being a Christian? A friend of mine calls himself a Christian, yet he doesn't believe in God. You see the same in ethnically Jewish people. Can these people be defined as Christians? I was baptized and went through a confirmation when I was 13, but I no longer actively go to church, and I am not sure of my relationship with the religion and belief system. Can I be defined as a Christian?

Once again I would like to make it clear that I deeply respect you, your beliefs and your faith. This does not stem from a cynical place in me, or even a critical part of me. I am only trying to get perspectives on this subject that I struggle with and find extremely interesting and fascinating. I'm very sorry if I have come across as anything but that, it wasn't my intention at any point.
 
I was raised and still am a Christian but the last few years have been a bit of struggle for me because I felt that even though I have tried very hard to live a good Christian life it led me to a place that was very dark and difficult and the only way that I felt that I could get out alive was to move away from some of the teachings I grew up with.

I found some writings by Paul Tillich, a theologian and philosopher and it really helped me get a new perspective on Christianity and religion. The following is a chapter from one of his books and I believe that it connects to your questions about how we practice Christianity:

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank Thee, 0 Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. MATTHEW 11:25-3O.

When I was of the age to receive confirmation and full membership in the Church, I was told to choose a passage from the Bible as the expression of my personal approach to the Biblical message and to the Christian Church. Every confirmee was obliged to do so, and to recite the passage before the congregation. When I chose the words, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden", I was asked with a kind of astonishment and even irony why I had chosen that particular passage. For I was living under happy conditions, and, being only fifteen years old, was without any apparent labor and burden. I could not answer at that time; I felt a little embarrassed, but basically right. And I was right, indeed; every child is right in responding immediately to those words; every adult is right in responding to them in all periods of his life, and under all the conditions of his internal and external history. These words of Jesus are universal, and fit every human being and every human situation. They are simple; they grasp the heart of the primitive as well as that of the profound, disturbing the mind of the wise. Practically every word of Jesus had this character, sharing the difference between Him as the originator and the dependent interpreters, disciples and theologians, saints and preachers. Returning for the first time in my life to the passage of my early choice, I feel just as grasped by it as at that time, but infinitely more embarrassed by its majesty, profundity and inexhaustible meaning. Our task in the face of words like these is obvious: we must point to the ground of their power over our souls; we must explain why, in their emotional force, the force of an ultimate truth is involved; and we must attempt to view our human situation in their light.
Three questions, aroused by the words of Jesus, shall be asked, and the answers implied in His words shall be interpreted. What is the labor and burden from which we can find rest though Him? What is the easy yoke and the light burden which He will put upon us? Why is He and He alone able to give such rest to our souls?
"All ye that labor and are heavy laden. . . .": this is addressed to all men, although not all men feel it in the same way. It is the general human situation to be heavy laden and to labor restlessly under a yoke too hard to be endured. What kind of burden is this? We may think first of the burdens and labors that daily life imposes upon us. But that is not indicated in our text. Jesus does not tell us that He will ease the labors and burdens of life and work. How could He, even if He wanted to? Whether or not we come to Him, the threats of illness or unemployment are not lessened, the weight of our work does not become easier, the fate of being refugee, driven from one country to another, is not changed; the horror of ruins, wounds, and death falling from heaven is not stopped; and the sorrow over the passing of friends or parents or children is not overcome. Jesus cannot and does not promise more pleasure and less pain to those whom He asks to come to Him. On the contrary, sometimes He promises them more pain, more persecution, more threat of death, or the cross, as He calls it. All this is not the burden to which He points.
Nor is it the burden of sin and guilt, as somebody educated in the traditional Christian interpretation of the work of Christ might assume. Nothing like that .is indicated in the words of Jesus. Taking upon oneself His easy yoke does not mean taking sin more easily or taking guilt less seriously. He does not tell those who come to Him that their sins are not so important as they seemed to be. He does not give them an easier conscience about their failures and trespasses. On the contrary, He sharpens their conscience to the highest possible degree in practically every one of His words. He condemns sins which the traditional theology of His time did not even consider as sins. This is not the burden to which He points.
The burden He wants to take from us is the burden of religion. It is the yoke of the law, imposed on the people of His time by the religious teachers, the wise and understanding, as He calls them in our words, the Scribes and Pharisees, as they are called usually. Those who labor and are heavy laden are those who are sighing under the yoke of the religious law. And He will give them the power to overcome religion and law; the yoke He gives them is a "new being" above religion. The thing they will learn from him is the victory over the law of the wise and the understanding, and the law of the Scribes and Pharisees.
How does this concern us? Why does this concern all men, in all situations? It concerns us because, with all human beings, we are sighing under the law, under a law which is religion and a religion which is law. This is the depth of the word of Jesus; this is the truth, implied in the emotional power of His words. Man labors and toils, because he is that being which knows about his finitude, about his transitoriness, about the danger of living, and about the tragic character of existence. Fear and anxiety are the heritage of all people, as Paul knew when he looked at the Jews and the Pagans. Restlessness drives man during his whole life, as Augustine knew A hidden element of despair is in every man's soul, as the great Danish Protestant, Kierkegaard, discovered. There is no religious genius, no keen observer of the abyss of the human soul, nobody capable of listening to the sounds of his heart, who would not witness to this insight into human nature and human existence. Splits and gaps are in every soul: for instance, we know that we are more than dust; and yet we know also that we are going to be dust. We know that we belong to a higher order than that of our animal needs and desires; and yet we know that we shall abuse the higher order in the service of our lower nature. We know that we are only small members of the spiritual world; and yet we know that we shall aspire to the whole, making ourselves the center of the world.
This is man; and because this is man, there is religion and law. The law of religion is the great attempt of man to overcome his anxiety and restlessness and despair, to close the gap within himself, and to reach immortality, spirituality and perfection. So he labors and toils under the religious law in thought and in act.
The religious law demands that he accept ideas and dogmas, that he believe in doctrines and traditions, the acceptance of which is the condition of his salvation from anxiety, despair and death. So he tries to accept them, although they may have become strange or doubtful to him. He labors and toils under the religious demand to believe things he cannot believe. Finally he tries to escape the law of religion. He tries to cast away the heavy yoke of the doctrinal law imposed on him by Church authorities, orthodox teachers, pious parents, and fixed traditions. He becomes critical and skeptical. He casts away the yoke; but none can live in the emptiness of mere skepticism, and so he returns to the old yoke in a kind of self-torturing fanaticism and tries to impose it on other people, on his children or pupils. He is driven by an unconscious desire for revenge, because of the burden he has taken upon himself. Many families are disrupted by painful tragedies and many minds are broken by this attitude of parents, teachers and priests. Others, unable to stand the emptiness of skepticism, find new yokes outside the Church, new doctrinal laws under which they begin to labor: political ideologies which they propagate with religious fanaticism; scientific theories which they defend with religious dogmatism; and utopian expectations they pronounce as the condition of salvation for the world, forcing whole nations under the yoke of their creeds which are religions, even while they pretend to destroy religion. We are all laboring under the yoke of religion; we all, sometimes, try to throw away old or new doctrines or dogmas, but after a little while we return, again enslaving ourselves and others in their servitude.
The same is true of the practical laws of religion. They demand ritual activities, the participation in religious enterprises, and the study of religious traditions, prayer, sacraments and meditations. They demand moral obedience, inhuman self-control and asceticism, devotion to man and things beyond our possibilities, surrender to ideas and duties beyond our power, unlimited self-negation, and unlimited self-perfection: the religious law demands the perfect in all respects. And our conscience agrees with this demand. But the split in our being is derived from just this: that the perfect, although it is the truth, is beyond us, against us, judging and condemning us. So we try to throw away the ritual and moral demands. We neglect them, we hate them, we criticize them; some of us display a cynical indifference toward the religious and moral law. But since mere cynicism is as impossible as mere skepticism, we return to old or new laws, becoming more fanatic than ever before, and take a yoke of the law upon us, which is more self-defying, more cruel against ourselves, and more willing to coerce other people under the same yoke in the name of the perfect. Jesus Himself becomes for these perfectionists, puritans and moralists a teacher of the religious law putting upon us the heaviest of all burdens, the burden of His law. But that is the greatest possible distortion of the mind of Jesus. This distortion can be found in the minds of those who crucified Him because He broke the religious law, not by fleeing from it like the cynical Sadducees, but by overcoming it.
We are all permanently in danger of abusing Jesus by stating that He is the founder of a new religion, and the bringer of another, more refined, and more enslaving law. And so we see in all Christian Churches the toiling and laboring of people who are called Christians, serious Christians, under innumerable laws which they cannot fulfill, from which they flee, to which they return, or which they replace by other laws. This is the yoke from which Jesus wants to liberate us. He is more than a priest or a prophet or a religious genius. These all subject us to religion. He frees us from religion. They all make new religious laws; He overcomes the religious law.
"Take my yoke upon you and learn of me . . . for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." This does not indicate a quantitative difference, a little easier, a little lighter. It indicates a contradiction! The yoke of Jesus is easy in itself, because it is above law, and replaces the toiling and laboring with rest in our souls. The yoke of religion and law presupposes all those splits and gaps in our souls which drive us to the attempt to overcome them. The yoke of Jesus is above those splits and gaps. It has overcome them whenever it appears and is received. It is not a new demand, a new. doctrine or new morals, but rather a new reality, a new being and a new power of transforming life. He calls it a yoke, He means that it comes from above and grasps us with saving force; if He calls it easy, He means that it is not a matter of our acting and striving, but rather that it is given before anything we can do. It is being, power, reality, conquering the anxiety and despair, the fear and the restlessness of our existence. It is here, amongst us, in the midst of our personal tragedy, and the tragedy of history. Suddenly, within the hardest struggle, it appears as a victory, not attained by ourselves, but present beyond expectation and struggle. Suddenly we are grasped by a peace which is above reason, that is, above our theoretical seeking for the true, and above our practical striving for the good. The true -- namely, the truth of our life and of our existence -- has grasped us. We know that now, in this moment, we are in the truth, in spite of all our ignorance about ourselves and our world. We have not become wiser and more understanding in any ordinary sense; we are still children in knowledge. But the truth of life is in us, with an illuminating certainty, uniting us with ourselves, giving us great and restful happiness. And the good, the ultimate good, which is not good for something else, but good in itself, has grasped us. We know that now, in this moment, we are in the good, in spite of all our weakness and evil, in spite of the fragmentary and distorted character of our Self and the world. We have not become more moral or more saintly; we still belong to a world which is subject to evil and self-destruction. But the good of life is in us, uniting us with the good of everything, giving us the blessed experience of universal love. If this should happen, and in such a measure, we should reach our eternity, the higher order and spiritual world to which we belong, and from which we are separated in our normal existence. We should be beyond ourselves. The new being would conquer us, although the old being would not disappear.
Where can we feel this new reality? We cannot find it; but it can find us. It tries to find us during our whole life. It is in the world; it carries the world; and it is the cause of the fact that our Self and our world are not yet thrown into utter self-destruction. Although it is hidden under anxiety and despair, under finitude and tragedy, it is in everything, in souls and bodies, because everything derives life from it. The new being means that the old being has not yet destroyed itself completely; that life is still possible; that our souls still gather force to go forward; and that the good and the true are not extinguished. I t is present, and it will find us. Let us be found by it. It is stronger than the world, although it is quiet and meek and humble.
That is the meaning of the call of Jesus, "Come unto Me." For in Him this new being is present in such a way that it determines His life. That which is hidden in all things, that which appears to us sometimes in the great elevations of our soul, is the forming power of this life. It is the uniqueness and the mystery of His Being, the embodiment, the full appearance of the New Being. That is the reason that He can say words which no prophet or saint has ever said: that nobody knows God save Him and those who receive their knowledge through Him. These words certainly do not mean that He imposes a new theology or a new religious law upon us They mean rather that He is the New Being in which everybody can participate, because it is universal and omnipresent. Why can He call Himself meek and lowly in heart after he has said words about His uniqueness, words that, in anyone else's mouth, would be blasphemous arrogance? It is because the New Being that forms Him is not created by Him. He is created by it. It has found Him, as it must find us. And since His Being is not the result of His striving and laboring, and since it is not servitude to the religious law but rather victory over religion and law that makes His uniqueness, He does not impose religion and law, burdens and yokes, upon men.
We would turn down His call with hatred if He called us to the Christian religion or to the Christian doctrines or to the Christian morals. We would not accept His claim to be meek and humble and to give rest to our souls, if He gave us new commands for thinking and acting. Jesus is not the creator of another religion, but the victor over religion; He is not the maker of another law, but the conqueror of law. We, the ministers and teachers of Christianity, do not call you to Christianity but rather to the New Being to which Christianity should be a witness and nothing else, not confusing itself with that New Being. Forget all Christian doctrines; forget your own certainties and your own doubts, when you hear the call of Jesus. Forget all Christian morals, your achievements and your failures, when you come to Him. Nothing is demanded of you, no idea of God, and no goodness in yourselves, not your being religious, not your being Christian, not your being wise, and not your being moral. But what is demanded is only your being open and willing to accept what is given to you, the New Being, the being of love and justice and truth, as it is manifest in Him Whose yoke is easy and Whose burden is light.
Let me close, as I began, with a personal word. Believe me, you who are religious and Christian. It would not be worthwhile to teach Christianity, if it were for the sake of Christianity. And believe me, you who are estranged from religion and far away from Christianity, it is not our purpose to make you religious and Christian when we interpret the call of Jesus for our time. We call Jesus the Christ not because He brought a new religion, but because He is the end of religion, above religion and irreligion, above Christianity and non-Christianity. We spread His call because it is the call to every man in every period to receive the New Being, that hidden saving power in our existence, which takes from us labor and burden, and gives rest to our souls.
Do not ask in this moment what we shall do or how action shall follow from the New Being, from the rest m our souls. Do not ask; for you do not ask how the good fruits follow from the goodness of a tree. They follow; action follows being, and new action, better action, stronger action, follows new being, better being, stronger being. We and our world would be better, truer, and more just, if there were more rest for souls in our world. Our actions would be more creative, more conquering, conquering the tragedy of our time, if they grew out of a more profound level of our life. For our creative depth is the depth in which we are quiet.
 
Yes, I have struggled with my early upbringing too. I very much wanted to be a Christian for a variety of reasons but found it almost impossible to believe the things that were required of me. Tillich is wonderful. As is Marcus Borg and a host of others that have been students of Tillich. There is a large and faithful body of Christians who have reconciled faith and reason and are at peace with themselves and with God. And it shows in their lives.

The Bible was never meant to be a collection of inerrant words written by God herself :) but a collection of the progress of a people and their faith, and wisdom of God-inspired men and women who speak as vividly to the human race today as they did thousands of years ago. It's not ecause of bad translation or modern word usage that the Bible is not the literal, inerrant word of God, although that has certainly occurred. There are, for instance, two creation stories, not because of translation errors, but that the ancient Hebrew scribes were charged with pulling together different tribes' understanding of their creation and put them both in Genesis. They obviously didn't take them literally or they would have picked the "right" one. The New Testament also contains the journey of the Christian faith as it has worked out over several centuries. Paul never discussed a virgin birth. The trinity is not an early concept although it was forming. Many of the concepts that are held as sacrosanct today were hashed out politically between various opposing bishops three hundred years after the birth of Christ. And after much of the canon texts were settled. That doesn't diminish the Bible or Christianity. For some of us, it enriches it and finally, finally! makes some sense.
 
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Regardless of where anyone is with their faith (or non-existent)…we should never stop asking questions. Having a natural, curious, open and questioning attitude on any subject matter in my opinion is healthy – so no need to worry – I’m certainly not offended with any of your questions and vice versa (I hope) with my candid response. Here’s a brief response of my perspective and obviously it’s open to others for their input.

I don’t consider the New Testament to be vague. I’m using the word “worship” in the context of a practicing Christian. The “ALL of your heart, soul, strength and mind” that is referred to in scripture is a definitive amount not a nebulous amount. Jesus is commanding every individual to give their ALL. He doesn’t say compare your ALL to other people so whether you give more or less is irrelevant. God is the judge as to whether you have followed his teaching – it is not for man to make that judgement. There is an internal barometer that I use to determine whether I am worshipping in the correct way. As in any human relationship, I have a degree of self-awareness about the kind of interaction I have with another person. In worship, I use this same principle when I am in the presence of God whether that is in a group or individual setting. It is a culmination of my conscience, my attitude ie whether I’m withholding, resisting, in denial or authentic in my expression of worship before God. I can fool those around me by pretending to be fervent but only God knows my heart.

"I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve." Jeremiah 17:10

The revelation of Jesus in the New Testament is the new covenant and replaces some of the Old Testament laws and rituals of worship hence why it’s important to read both the OT and NT in conjunction.

Now here’s the controversial bit. In my opinion your friend is not a Christian because his belief that God doesn’t exist is completely contrary to the Christian faith. Confirmation and baptism does not qualify you to be a Christian – they may act as a prerequisite to a person coming to faith but essentially these sacraments, rituals etc does not make you a Christian.

I was a Catholic, christened as a child, went to a Catholic school, church every Sunday (dictated by my parents), took confirmation classes, holy communion, confession, thought Jesus was an extraordinary person but none of these things made me a Catholic/Christian. At 16 years of age, I was given the choice whether to continue going to church - I decided to go my own way and chose not to follow religion.

The bible says that in order to be a Christian, you must be born-again of the Spirit (read John 3:3). This means that the person has to acknowledge that they have broken God’s laws, to trust and believe that Jesus is the Son of God, accept the free gift of life and to actively live a Christian life. Simple truth but profoundly contentious and dividing. I understand that because I was one of those who was sceptical and resistant for many years but eventually made a decision that proved to be life changing. I echo what La Sagna and Spinnaker4469 said – the Christian life isn’t easy (mainly because of the inherent nature of human beings and because “life happens”) but even when I’ve chosen to walk in a different direction – God has always remained faithful and loving.
 
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Hey Christians and every one else reading this thread,

I am a great admirer of the philosophy and humanity of your religion. I believe that it is one of the most important fundamental parts of western civilization, and a very good building block for equality.
My question is about your faith itself, and how you can be a steadfast believer in Christianity as the only way to salvation.
Christianity as a religion has undergone hundreds of changes from its beginnings as a Jewish cult in the middle east, to a mystical religion of Greece and then morphed closer into what we believe that it is now.

1) Do you believe that previous ways of celebrating Jesus and his life were wrong?
2) Does it worry you that Christianity has changed so much from its starting point to where it is now?
3) What makes you think that the current way of celebrating Jesus as the son of God is the correct way in the eyes of God?

What "previous ways"? Why are they wrong? Does it worry me? No, the difference between a living religion and a dead religion is that a living religion changes and is not a fossilised relic, like the bog bodies or something, what is the correct way in the eyes of God? Who is to know, my study of scriptures, the saints, sacred and profane literature etc. all persuade me that how I live, think, act and what I believe is correct but I do not believe this can be finally settled, it should not be, that is the hardening of the arteries, the slow death and faith becoming a corpse, some kind of Frankenstein's monster.
 
What "previous ways"? Why are they wrong?

Christianity has gone through many phases before finding its ways to this one. It started as a Jewish cult (circa the year 30-70) where the Jewish adherents believed that the world was coming to an end very soon. They sacrificed animals to Jesus, and mostly kept to their normal Jewish traditions otherwise.

Then Christianity found its ways to Greece and entered the Hellenistic-Roman Phase (circa 70-500). This is where the very mystical and Greek-inspired Gospel of John was written as the last major gospel. Greek and Roman mysticism, oriental magic and astral science found its way into Christianity, and animal sacrifices, circumcision and the Sabbath went out the window. The Greeks also changed the meaning of Jesus' resurrection to reflect the immortality of the soul, as the Greeks wished to be free of the body.

The third phase is known as the Barbarian phase (500-1100). Constantine eventually made Christianity the state religion of his empire, and sought to be catholicity (universality) to the church. This put the foundation of the Catholic church in place. In the Barbarian phase, Christianity grew to be a world empire, and became synonymous with high technology, intellectuals and sophisticated individuals. As the Roman empire broke down, the religion went back with the barbarians who had fought the empire, hence the Roman coined name "the barbarian phase". It was no longer the rich and intellectuals who held claim to be Christians, it became a religion of the poor and peasants.

Finally we arrive at the Western phase (circa 1100-1600). As the Turks occupied Constantinople (Istanbul) Christianity retreated into Europe and became a Western religion. It was here and alongside Christianity that the modern Western society was formed. It was during this period that much debate happened over the meaning and achievement of salvation through Christ. There was the infamous split between the Catholics, Protestants and the Anabaptists. Eventually this lead to many, many groups of Christian congregations being formed, and many of said small groups sought a place to govern themselves and others - hence America.

*deep breath*

My point being, there has been radical changes along the way. Very radical changes. Who's to say that the Barbarians didn't get it right, and the changes made after them go against what Jesus and God wanted? Or maybe the original Jewish cult had it right, maybe Jesus wanted animal sacrifices and strict adherence to the Torah?

Does it worry me? No, the difference between a living religion and a dead religion is that a living religion changes and is not a fossilised relic, like the bog bodies or something, what is the correct way in the eyes of God? Who is to know, my study of scriptures, the saints, sacred and profane literature etc. all persuade me that how I live, think, act and what I believe is correct but I do not believe this can be finally settled, it should not be, that is the hardening of the arteries, the slow death and faith becoming a corpse, some kind of Frankenstein's monster.

I agree that a living religion is important and vital to an active relationship with the church! I can find very little in the current Christian pillars that I disagree with. Where I am curious is your belief and whether or not you hold doubt about your own personal relationship to Jesus and the Bible. Where does this belief that you are living correctly come from?
 
Christianity has gone through many phases before finding its ways to this one. It started as a Jewish cult (circa the year 30-70) where the Jewish adherents believed that the world was coming to an end very soon. They sacrificed animals to Jesus, and mostly kept to their normal Jewish traditions otherwise.

Then Christianity found its ways to Greece and entered the Hellenistic-Roman Phase (circa 70-500). This is where the very mystical and Greek-inspired Gospel of John was written as the last major gospel. Greek and Roman mysticism, oriental magic and astral science found its way into Christianity, and animal sacrifices, circumcision and the Sabbath went out the window. The Greeks also changed the meaning of Jesus' resurrection to reflect the immortality of the soul, as the Greeks wished to be free of the body.

The third phase is known as the Barbarian phase (500-1100). Constantine eventually made Christianity the state religion of his empire, and sought to be catholicity (universality) to the church. This put the foundation of the Catholic church in place. In the Barbarian phase, Christianity grew to be a world empire, and became synonymous with high technology, intellectuals and sophisticated individuals. As the Roman empire broke down, the religion went back with the barbarians who had fought the empire, hence the Roman coined name "the barbarian phase". It was no longer the rich and intellectuals who held claim to be Christians, it became a religion of the poor and peasants.

Finally we arrive at the Western phase (circa 1100-1600). As the Turks occupied Constantinople (Istanbul) Christianity retreated into Europe and became a Western religion. It was here and alongside Christianity that the modern Western society was formed. It was during this period that much debate happened over the meaning and achievement of salvation through Christ. There was the infamous split between the Catholics, Protestants and the Anabaptists. Eventually this lead to many, many groups of Christian congregations being formed, and many of said small groups sought a place to govern themselves and others - hence America.

*deep breath*

My point being, there has been radical changes along the way. Very radical changes. Who's to say that the Barbarians didn't get it right, and the changes made after them go against what Jesus and God wanted? Or maybe the original Jewish cult had it right, maybe Jesus wanted animal sacrifices and strict adherence to the Torah?

I think the differences between the group which Matthew and James represented and Pauline Christianity are interesting, I tend to believe that Matthew and James were correct. Although there are a lot of the Jewish thinkers and philosophers are important and have made similar interpretations to what Jesus did in the era of the Gospels, like Fromm, Buber etc.

Those things are worth discussing, I think anyway.


I agree that a living religion is important and vital to an active relationship with the church! I can find very little in the current Christian pillars that I disagree with. Where I am curious is your belief and whether or not you hold doubt about your own personal relationship to Jesus and the Bible. Where does this belief that you are living correctly come from?

I'm a practicing Roman Catholic, and I've only experienced doubt occasionally, although searching for God has meant something different to my relationship to the church or Jesus (certainly how that has been interpreted by protestantism). The belief that I'm living correctly comes from discernment which results from prayer, reflection, meditation and serious scholarlly reading. My interest in discernment stems from knowing the Jesuit thinking and teaching about that. Also my reading of Erasmus and Luther's discourse on free will.