Animals and conscious thought
- Thread starter Skarekrow
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I've given this some thought before. [: I suppose it depends on how you look at consciousness. Personally, I think there's three ways. Instinctual, emotional, and conditioned. I had a fish once that I fed by holding the piece of food right above the water. It would jump and grab it. Eventually, if I put my hand over the water, it would jump. In some very small way, maybe the fish understood that the big object appearing at the surface of the world meant food - but that's a very low level of consciousness. I'm sure the fish didn't get excited when I walked in the room because it thought I was going to feed it.
Then there's dogs and cats. My dog gets horribly upset if she has an accident in the house (bless her heart, she's getting old). If she's away from us, she gets upset. Thunderstorms scare her and the word "bath" makes her agitated while the word "vet" or "walk" make her excited. So, looking from that point of view, anything rodent sized may be where the cut off is - feeling emotions (other than those from fight-or-flight) and recognizing people. But if you take into account conditioning and instinct, you could argue in favor for a fish.
It's an interesting thing to ponder on. [:
Then there's dogs and cats. My dog gets horribly upset if she has an accident in the house (bless her heart, she's getting old). If she's away from us, she gets upset. Thunderstorms scare her and the word "bath" makes her agitated while the word "vet" or "walk" make her excited. So, looking from that point of view, anything rodent sized may be where the cut off is - feeling emotions (other than those from fight-or-flight) and recognizing people. But if you take into account conditioning and instinct, you could argue in favor for a fish.
It's an interesting thing to ponder on. [:
The noble octopus. I hear they're pretty intelligent. I can't rightly say I'd know how to establish a cut-off for what represents conscious thought though.
Some spiders are capable of advanced planning and problem solving, especially jumping spiders.
Jumping spiders are hunters, and many of them are spider eating spiders. Some will take on spiders that are many times bigger and more dangerous than themselves.
How do they do this? They stalk the prey like a cat, and plan the attack. This is more than mechanical instinct, because the spider will plan its route to its prey, which can be very complex and variable, and if the prey is too aware, facing the wrong way, or just too dangerous to pounce at that time, the spider will actually retreat and come back later - some times hours later, from a better vantage point, looking for that perfect moment to pounce.
Also jumping spiders can have some of the largest brains for their size. On some of them the brain fills the entire front of the body and actually spills over into the legs and abdomen.
Jumping spiders are hunters, and many of them are spider eating spiders. Some will take on spiders that are many times bigger and more dangerous than themselves.
How do they do this? They stalk the prey like a cat, and plan the attack. This is more than mechanical instinct, because the spider will plan its route to its prey, which can be very complex and variable, and if the prey is too aware, facing the wrong way, or just too dangerous to pounce at that time, the spider will actually retreat and come back later - some times hours later, from a better vantage point, looking for that perfect moment to pounce.
Also jumping spiders can have some of the largest brains for their size. On some of them the brain fills the entire front of the body and actually spills over into the legs and abdomen.
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It's not much of an imagination exercise for me. I believe Pavlov's idea of animals as pure automatons is long dead.
As far as I'm concerned, many of them are capable of conscious thought, and (OK, it's more work-related but still) linguistic communication that we call "language". A few things:
Seriously, in evolution everything is gradual. What's with the assumption that linguistic communication and abstract reasoning never developed for billions of years and then immediately went from 0 to 1?
As far as I'm concerned, many of them are capable of conscious thought, and (OK, it's more work-related but still) linguistic communication that we call "language". A few things:
- how do the huge colonies of social insects run so smoothly? How can the ability to handle changing circumstances be pre-programmed? The most parsimonious conclusion is that the ants communicate and think to some extent. You guys are probably not that much into scientific papers, but in case you are, take a look here: http://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/11/4/836/pdf. A researcher did a series of very simple experiments, which seem to demonstrate that the ants are able to communicate, count, and reason in abstract terms.
- complex hunting techniques of some cetaceans, in which they coordinate group actions and adapt to the environment (e.g. together rock a piece of ice where a seal is lying)
- cetacean communication. It is already known that dolphins have "signature whistles" for each other; in English, they give each other names. Many researchers concluded that they have a class of "diplomats" who negotiate "peace agreements" when two pods compete over food
- tool use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_use_by_animals. Some chimps apparently sharpen sticks to use as spears
Seriously, in evolution everything is gradual. What's with the assumption that linguistic communication and abstract reasoning never developed for billions of years and then immediately went from 0 to 1?
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Some ants also cultivate fungus. Most animals eat what is available but these ants are literally farmers in that they will collect a non-food substance such as leaves, bring them to the colony, and use them to harbor the fungus that they actually do eat. They don't cut the leaves for food, they cut them to use as a substrate - much like a human farmer will prepare the soil and fertilize it for the actual crop.
Yeah, I mean think about it.
How many times do you see humans tunneling like ants and living in massive colonies? You don't see it. We can conceive of it - I just did - and we know it is possible to attempt it, but nobody does it, and most probably wouldn't consider doing so any time soon.
We also don't often see humans pulling termites out of holes with sticks, which is a much simpler and reasonable task. A human can do that absolutely, we just don't want to.
I agree that Dolphins and the like could certainly have conscious thought, but I tend to view ants as sort of bio-robots I suppose, no true self-awareness, just sort of pre-programed set of instructions, a very complex set of instructions none the same in relation to their size...individually I would say no they do not...as a group they almost create a hive mind, a collective intelligence...is a collective intelligence such as that capable of self-awareness in terms of "I am a group of ants (or whatever ants call themselves), I will go do X next"
Do they realize they are a spider?
Okay...X out "lower life form" and throw in other animals besides us. I still vote for Tom Cruise.
Surely they have life...but how does that make them conscious?