Analyzing the Arizona Shooter | INFJ Forum

Analyzing the Arizona Shooter

Faye

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Mar 9, 2009
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So, I'm sure everyone has heard about the shooting in Arizona at this point. Right now, I'm going through some information on the shooter out of interest to see what made him so crazy, if that can be determined from this information.

Here is his youtube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/2/PnNx0WThoF0

Here is his friend discussing him:

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1

If anyone has any other good information about who he was, I'd love to see it.

This shooting has made me depressed. When I first saw it, I couldn't read the stories because they are so horrible. I hope the congresswoman is able to make a recovery.

He seems to have been obsessed with lucid dreaming. I'll post more thoughts later.

Feel free to chime in.
 
To quote The Postal Service, although about a different killer:

"It was just a man with something to prove
Slightly bored and severely confused
He steadied his rifle with his target in the center
And became famous on that day in november"

Still applies in my mind. The kid had to fight for something because he didn't want to be nothing, and he chose this.
 
First of all, he is extraordinarily narcissistic and wants to be able to control.... everything. He believes he is better than most people. Lucid dreaming is an obsession of his because it gives him a world that he is able to create and control.

He is obsessed with some particular ideas surrounding the philosophy of language because he believes grammar is coercive. He is essentially a true individualist of language and a nihilist, and he wanted to be able to control even language and grammar. But obviously, a language is useless unless you are willing to make concessions in its usage.

He is crazy, but the scary thing is that a lot of people are thinking along similar lines lately, though in their own disturbing ways. We know he likely wont be the last shooter, but it would be great if he was.
 
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INFJ.
 

Why not INTJ : )

He was clearly delusional and obsessed. He needed medical treatment :S

Now I see there are many fans of him in youtube, we need to collect all these people and send them to a mental care institution :S brrrr
 
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First of all, he is extraordinarily narcissistic and wants to be able to control.... everything. He believes he is better than most people. Lucid dreaming is an obsession of his because it gives him a world that he is able to create and control.

He is obsessed with some particular ideas surrounding the philosophy of language because he believes grammar is coercive. He is essentially a true individualist of language and a nihilist, and he wanted to be able to control even language and grammar. But obviously, a language is useless unless you are willing to make concessions in its usage.

He is crazy, but the scary thing is that a lot of people are thinking along similar lines lately, though in their own disturbing ways. We know he likely wont be the last shooter, but it would be great if he was.

hmmm

I have not checked the links yet.
I don't really know the circumstances surrounding him or the incident he was involved with.

So I'll do some research and come back with a more educated response.

First I want to respond to what you have written.

It makes sense that more people would feel similar things, even come to the same conclusions and act out the same way.
Perhaps his behavior is destructive, and perhaps he believed he was called to do exactly what he did.

Does this make him a villain?

Was he just an incredibly disturbed narcissist, or can we come to any other conclusions?

I believe lucid dreaming is incredibly fascinating.
Once you have experienced lucidity, it is hard NOT to be excited about it.

I think it is a bit unfair to equate a fascination with lucid dreaming to a simple desire to control everything.
There is probably much more going on here, but you have already judged him.

Concerning language... why not consider his ideas for a minute. He is certainly not the first, not the only one to come to such a conclusion.
I believe that language does limit us quite a bit.

Think about it.
We have the ability to make all these sounds, yet we still have such a hard time relating to each other.

Language is just one way of communicating. It does not carry the information we would like it to.
Consider how much information can be transmitted through vibrations, through 'music'.

I can see how an entire language COULD be coercive.
Language tied to concepts, tied to tradition, tied to our culture, our ideals.
Perhaps all human language has only limited our potential as conscious beings.

Am I crazy for thinking along these lines?
It seems you would think so, according to your post here.

Maybe this man was more sane than the rest of us.
Perhaps he WAS better than most people, if such a distinction can be assumed.

To dismiss him as a crazy person does us all a disservice.
Let's think about why he did what he did.

Is it so difficult to try to understand such behavior?
I think it is worth the effort.
As you say, he won't be the last shooter.

If we knew what could drive a person to do this, we would only be educating ourselves, and perhaps
we could then find a way to prevent the escalating circumstances that lead to this kind of behavior.

I think the issue is misguided energy.
Perhaps this man could have made a deeper, more meaningful impact if he had been given another outlet.
If he was encouraged to create rather than destroy, maybe this would not have happened.

Maybe he felt he needed to destroy in order for something better to be created.
He wanted to take responsibility for something, somehow.

Imagine if we were all so daring...
Is it crazy to think this way?

I see that you quote Nietzsche in your sig.
Do you think he was crazy?
Perhaps he just understood more than the average bear.

In any case, I think it is better to work to understand, rather than pass judgement on these people.
 
He certainly expressed a lot of anti-government rhetoric; I'll still argue that government is what you make of it and is a citizenry's best tool against many detrimental influences, so long as it is operated by people who believe in it. Troubles me to see it so frequently act as the meatshield scapegoat for the bad-guys who are simply buying it's services currently.
 
First of all, he is extraordinarily narcissistic and wants to be able to control.... everything. He believes he is better than most people. Lucid dreaming is an obsession of his because it gives him a world that he is able to create and control.

I agree that he seems like a narcissist however I disagree on your point of his wanting control. He wanted absolute freedom for himself and for everyone. Even his friend hinted at it with the analogy to the joker, he wanted to spread chaos because he wanted to liberate people not control them. He wanted to liberate people from what he saw as an overly authoritarian restrictive world. He wants to save the world he wants to be god, but only to free people (in his eyes.)

He also seems very resentful toward the world and everyone, perhaps the resentment is hidden but it shows itself in his seeming desire to change reality. He doesn't like the world he was born in the rules he has to live by even if those rules can't be changed (like language) He wishes the world was different but it can't be so he lashes out.

See the means to his end would be absolute control (ironically) but it isn't the motive for his actions.

He is crazy, but the scary thing is that a lot of people are thinking along similar lines lately, though in their own disturbing ways. We know he likely wont be the last shooter, but it would be great if he was.

I don't think he is crazy, this dudes grasp on reality seems a bit strange bit it is still there. :m027:

edit: Ok just saw his Youtube channel he does seem like he has mental health issues.
 
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It's certainly convenient to call him crazy, though... that would mean not having to take and blame upon ourselves and/or re-examine the fact that we are the single most heavily armed nation on the face of the planet (90 guns per 100 people as opposed to Yemen's #2 at 67/100.) As a seemingly vibrant, peace-loving (pff), healthy nation, there's something awfully wrong with that picture.
 
It's certainly convenient to call him crazy, though... that would mean not having to take and blame upon ourselves and/or re-examine the fact that we are the single most heavily armed nation on the face of the planet (90 guns per 100 people as opposed to Yemen's #2 at 67/100.) As a seemingly vibrant, peace-loving (pff), healthy nation, there's something awfully wrong with that picture.

Having said this, this is based less on this individual case and on the dozens of very similar cases that have unfolded over the last 20-30 years. We all act surprised every time this happens... but the above seems to be almost standard whenever this does happen. *shrug*
 
I believe lucid dreaming is incredibly fascinating.
Once you have experienced lucidity, it is hard NOT to be excited about it.

I think it is a bit unfair to equate a fascination with lucid dreaming to a simple desire to control everything.
There is probably much more going on here, but you have already judged him.
I would say it's not, per se; but I would say this person wasn't narcissistic; he's delusional. Add delusion (and a slightly...different sanity than most, for better or worse) into the equation and the desire to control his real life world -- the desire that, I believed, resulted in what he did, is exacerbated. Lucid dreaming is one such event when you are in complete control of your own life...you can be your own DM (Dungeon Master), so to speak. In a different way of looking, I can see why Dragon would consider it narcissism, though.

Of course the article have to mention the Matrix *sigh*
I think the issue is misguided energy.
Perhaps this man could have made a deeper, more meaningful impact if he had been given another outlet.
If he was encouraged to create rather than destroy, maybe this would not have happened.
I agree, but then again, the sanest and most insane of us, the wisest and dumbest of us, in the end are also differed by what we created, are creating, or will create, no? I don't say thoughts doesn't matter, but the fruition of all those thoughts (actions and words) is the only way of how we can understand other people. And he chose to do this. What does this decision say about him?

I could not see what was inside the shooter's mind, psyche, and soul either way. He was corrupted by what he believed he is, what he had created. Narcissism, delusion, or simply a twisted idealism, I have no idea.
 
His youtube videos make no sense to me. What is that about?
 
I believe lucid dreaming is incredibly fascinating.
Once you have experienced lucidity, it is hard NOT to be excited about it.

I think it is a bit unfair to equate a fascination with lucid dreaming to a simple desire to control everything.
There is probably much more going on here, but you have already judged him.

Concerning language... why not consider his ideas for a minute. He is certainly not the first, not the only one to come to such a conclusion.
I believe that language does limit us quite a bit.

Think about it.
We have the ability to make all these sounds, yet we still have such a hard time relating to each other.

Language is just one way of communicating. It does not carry the information we would like it to.
Consider how much information can be transmitted through vibrations, through 'music'.

I can see how an entire language COULD be coercive.
Language tied to concepts, tied to tradition, tied to our culture, our ideals.
Perhaps all human language has only limited our potential as conscious beings.

Am I crazy for thinking along these lines?
It seems you would think so, according to your post here.

Maybe this man was more sane than the rest of us.
Perhaps he WAS better than most people, if such a distinction can be assumed.

To dismiss him as a crazy person does us all a disservice.
Let's think about why he did what he did.

Is it so difficult to try to understand such behavior?
I think it is worth the effort.
As you say, he won't be the last shooter.

If we knew what could drive a person to do this, we would only be educating ourselves, and perhaps
we could then find a way to prevent the escalating circumstances that lead to this kind of behavior.

I think the issue is misguided energy.
Perhaps this man could have made a deeper, more meaningful impact if he had been given another outlet.
If he was encouraged to create rather than destroy, maybe this would not have happened.

Maybe he felt he needed to destroy in order for something better to be created.
He wanted to take responsibility for something, somehow.

Imagine if we were all so daring...
Is it crazy to think this way?

I see that you quote Nietzsche in your sig.
Do you think he was crazy?
Perhaps he just understood more than the average bear.

In any case, I think it is better to work to understand, rather than pass judgement on these people.

Lucid dreaming is cool for a little while and then it gets old.

I don't think the limitations of language are necessarily a bad thing, and I definitely don't think words mean nothing. We give words meaning. It doesn't matter what the language is; governments exist to maintain control of a given geographical region and to maintain the unequal distribution of resources in a society. Historically, laws come into existence about the time surplus and inequality come into existence.

I don't know that he could have made a positive impact in another way without changing what he believed significantly.

Nietzsche was kind of crazy, but in a very different way from this guy.

And if we were all 'so daring', we wouldn't be capable of cooperation at all.

I agree that he seems like a narcissist however I disagree on your point of his wanting control. He wanted absolute freedom for himself and for everyone. Even his friend hinted at it with the analogy to the joker, he wanted to spread chaos because he wanted to liberate people not control them. He wanted to liberate people from what he saw as an overly authoritarian restrictive world. He wants to save the world he wants to be god, but only to free people (in his eyes.)

He also seems very resentful toward the world and everyone, perhaps the resentment is hidden but it shows itself in his seeming desire to change reality. He doesn't like the world he was born in the rules he has to live by even if those rules can't be changed (like language) He wishes the world was different but it can't be so he lashes out.

See the means to his end would be absolute control (ironically) but it isn't the motive for his actions.



I don't think he is crazy, this dudes grasp on reality seems a bit strange bit it is still there. :m027:
Yes, but what is freedom in a system full of coercion (meaning, when we interact with other people an institutions, especially government, there are incentives for not behaving in certain ways and for behaving in other ways)? Either they are in control, or you are. He definitely wanted his individual freedom, but I don't think he really cared about the freedom of other people.

And yes, he is definitely full to the brim of resentment for others and the world.


It's certainly convenient to call him crazy, though... that would mean not having to take and blame upon ourselves and/or re-examine the fact that we are the single most heavily armed nation on the face of the planet (90 guns per 100 people as opposed to Yemen's #2 at 67/100.) As a seemingly vibrant, peace-loving (pff), healthy nation, there's something awfully wrong with that picture.

This is a really good point- very interesting.

I would say it's not, per se; but I would say this person wasn't narcissistic; he's delusional. Add delusion (and a slightly...different sanity than most, for better or worse) into the equation and the desire to control his real life world -- the desire that, I believed, resulted in what he did, is exacerbated. Lucid dreaming is one such event when you are in complete control of your own life...you can be your own DM (Dungeon Master), so to speak. In a different way of looking, I can see why Dragon would consider it narcissism, though.

Of course the article have to mention the Matrix *sigh*
I agree, but then again, the sanest and most insane of us, the wisest and dumbest of us, in the end are also differed by what we created, are creating, or will create, no? I don't say thoughts doesn't matter, but the fruition of all those thoughts (actions and words) is the only way of how we can understand other people. And he chose to do this. What does this decision say about him?

I could not see what was inside the shooter's mind, psyche, and soul either way. He was corrupted by what he believed he is, what he had created. Narcissism, delusion, or simply a twisted idealism, I have no idea.

Well, he is certainly delusional, and it is funny how the two tend to go hand in hand.

His youtube videos make no sense to me. What is that about?

That is because they don't actually make sense. In a nutshell, he is ranting about how the government is using mind control tactics.
 
He has mental health problems... It would do us better to improve the system so that people like him don't slip through the cracks--but get the help they need.

Also I agree he has to be INFJ.

(BAHAHAHA... J/k..)
 
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He has mental health problems... It would do us better to improve the system so that people like him don't slip through the cracks.

How would we catch him when participation in the system is voluntary?

That is, until you end up in jail. Prisons have become the default mental health system. Basically with the way things are set up, nobody cares until a crime is committed.

As far as I know, he didn't commit any crimes prior to this that would indicate he was in such a bad state.
 
He was thrown out of school for "erratic behavior." So.. an institution recognized he was at risk for committing a violent act.
Maybe the family should have been notified of this and set up services for him. I mean, maybe that's what we should be discussing...
this issue of confidentiality of adults with mental health issues that go unaddressed.
 
I love his reasoning in his vids. I am joking of course. Me poking fun. "If I cut down one tree and then another then reason tells me I can cut down a third one too." No shit did you think that all up yourself Mr smarty pants?

I am calling it it like I see it. This guy never fit in. He has anger issues. And no matter how hard he tried he was still just a douche bag who let a gun do the talking. And killed some innocent people. He was too much of a coward to kill himself and save us the trouble. So now we have to deal with him.​
 
Yes, but what is freedom in a system full of coercion (meaning, when we interact with other people an institutions, especially government, there are incentives for not behaving in certain ways and for behaving in other ways)? Either they are in control, or you are. He definitely wanted his individual freedom, but I don't think he really cared about the freedom of other people.

Well I certainly don't agree with his assessment it is extremely hypocritical. Just because his assessment of the world is ludicrous and dangerous doesn't mean that his motivations were as well. The most purely motivated people can be the most dangerous because it lends them a sense of rectitude. He seems to me like a narcissist who has a savior complex. He isn't evil, although I am far from condoning or excusing what he did.