In light of School Shootings. What about the shooter themselves?

invisible said:

You're right. But I think it is more meaningful to compare countries that are more similar in terms of culture, history, and economic climate. And I tend to think that dealing with the practical aspect of convenience weapons of mass destruction represents a more pressing concern than discovering why people do it. (This is my personal belief.)

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True. I go back and forth sometimes. But the bottom line is that you're correct: If these people didn't have guns they wouldn't shoot people. And they always have an obscene amount of guns. It's like one weapon in a household for personal protection, fine, understandable (I have one myself). Or a hunter who keeps one or two hunting guns, okay I get it (even though I totally don't get hunting). But whenever some @sshole decides to do one of these fish in barrel type attacks, it always comes to light that they don't own just one gun, but many guns, guns whose number and capacity for mass destruction just can't be explained. And it's like why is there not a red flag for this? Who the feck needs 13 guns?

invisible said:

You're right. But I think it is more meaningful to compare countries that are more similar in terms of culture, history, and economic climate. And I tend to think that dealing with the practical aspect of convenience weapons of mass destruction represents a more pressing concern than discovering why people do it. (This is my personal belief.)

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It's always curious to me how when mass shootings occur, the most vocal voices are those who think the most important thing for everyone to understand first more than anything else is the right to own guns and have as many as you want, because that will of course solve all our gun crime problems. Just odd that this argument is given priority over everything else.

Gist said:

It's always curious to me how when mass shootings occur, the most vocal voices are those who think the most important thing for everyone to understand first more than anything else is the right to own guns and have as many as you want, because that will of course solve all our gun crime problems. Just odd that this argument is given priority over everything else.

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I do understand the fear that would arise from a society that is absolutely saturated with guns, in response to the idea of relinquishing guns. When there are so many guns, how are you supposed to defend yourself against all the people out there who will refuse to hand their guns in?

PintoBean said:

True. I go back and forth sometimes. But the bottom line is that you're correct: If these people didn't have guns they wouldn't shoot people. And they always have an obscene amount of guns. It's like one weapon in a household for personal protection, fine, understandable (I have one myself). Or a hunter who keeps one or two hunting guns, okay I get it (even though I totally don't get hunting). But whenever some @shole decides to do one of these fish in barrel type attacks, it always comes to light that they don't own just one gun, but many guns, guns whose number and capacity for mass destruction just can't be explained. And it's like why is there not a red flag for this? Who the feck needs 13 guns?

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I agree with you and Gist so much. Why can't gun quantities be restricted by owner? While I have seen some "beautiful" firearms in my life (in pictures I mean), surely the most important thing is respecting its quality as a weapon, rather than as a commodity.

I'm very sorry @Retroverse and did not intend to completely derail the discussion about mental health - I have clearly allowed my emotions to get the better of me. The discussion about mental health is also a valid discussion on its own terms.

Retroverse said:

I understand this is a sensitive topic and I want to caution people before reading my comments or any others involved.

If you are in the United States, I am positive you have heard/read/watched the news relating to the newest school shooting that took place in Oregon Umpqua Community College. By now this has been commonplace and almost if not already, a yearly thing. Even if its not school related entirely, mass shootings have been reoccurring more and more each year.

I feel a great loss for the countless victims who were slain in the massacres but at the same time I feel even more sorry for the individual who slain them. I feel like I am not on the popular side when I state that. However, if you were to hear me out I'll explain.

Since America has developed a nasty stigma about mental illness. People who are dire need of help often hide their issues. They that if they were exposed and people knew how they felt entirely, they'd be pegged as crazy. No one really wants to be labled as crazy, outcast, lunatic, weak. Those are all the things I notice periodically are associated with mental disorders. It saddens me because these people are literally dying for help. The help never comes and they finally lash out. Taking people with them and trying to make a statement. I can't condone them for killing people. Yet I feel sorry for them that they never got the help they deserved as a human being.

I would like to know if anyone felt the same way I did about the person who committed these acts. Do you feel I'm being naive and these people were never able to helped anyways? Or do you agree? Either way, I'd love to know what other INFJs think.

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I agree with you that there is a tremendous cultural stigma about mental illness. I sort of think that this is expressed in different ways, though. There is a level of mental interference that is diagnosable and perhaps (or perhaps not) usefully treatable with varying degrees of specialist medical attention, and usually this sort of interference is not very stigmatised - it is the sort of thing that most people can understand and relate to, like "I went through a rough time, with understanding myself, or dealing with my inclinations, or with some things that were going on in my life". However I think that beyond this is an entire other level of stigma that is attached to severe mental health disturbances of the kind that are usually treated with hospital care, because becoming this ill is outside what is perceived as being the normal range of experience, and because there is a cultural history of the meanings of institutionalisation. I think that people who have been mentally ill enough to have been treated as an inpatient will usually have a good understanding of this kind of stigma, because they will have attempted to explain the severity of their experience to friends and employers who have great difficulties integrating this new information to their conception of the person as a functional and competent individual. I think that a person who suffers from this sort of extreme severity of mental health problem could be fearful of treatment, particularly of the possibility of being told that something is deeply wrong or broken with them, that there is no treatment that they will respond to - and so maybe they avoid the possibility of learning such unpleasant things through refusing to submit themselves for evaluation or treatment.

I do also suspect that additionally, B Cluster personality disorders are stigmatised as representing significant disruption or danger to others, and also somewhat resistant to treatment. (My personal opinion.)

invisible said:

I think that people who have been mentally ill enough to have been treated as an inpatient will usually have a good understanding of this kind of stigma, because they will have attempted to explain the severity of their experience to friends and employers who have great difficulties integrating this new information to their conception of the person as a functional and competent individual.

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I've been doing this recently and within the past year. I'm not entirely sure why I still decide to hide that part of myself. More often than not I'm not hiding it, it just never comes up. Back when I wasn't hiding it, or anything at all, I learned the more I talked about it the more others would say they've been institutionalized too. Or that their friend or family member was. When I do talk about my past in detail, I see no stigma. I receive no stigma. I only see and hear from people who have been through the same shit, or are going through it now. And more often than not information of my past helps them deal with their present.

I have talked a little bit about it recently and in more detail with certain friends however I find myself not wanting to go further and the reason why is interesting: I miss those days. They were a hell of a lot more fun lol. I suppose it's only natural to reminisce those days I was a total recluse. Considering these days I have responsibility and shit. I'd equate it to how 'normal' people reminisce about high school or childhood. Though I also don't believe people living in the past are all that mentally healthy. Which is probably why I refuse to go into depth about my own.

DonTaushMe said:

I've been doing this recently and within the past year. I'm not entirely sure why I still decide to hide that part of myself. More often than not I'm not hiding it, it just never comes up. Back when I wasn't hiding it, or anything at all, I learned the more I talked about it the more others would say they've been institutionalized too. Or that their friend or family member was. When I do talk about my past in detail, I see no stigma. I receive no stigma. I only see and hear from people who have been through the same shit, or are going through it now. And more often than not information of my past helps them deal with their present.

I have talked a little bit about it recently and in more detail with certain friends however I find myself not wanting to go further and the reason why is interesting: I miss those days. They were a hell of a lot more fun lol. I suppose it's only natural to reminisce those days I was a total recluse. Considering these days I have responsibility and shit. I'd equate it to how 'normal' people reminisce about high school or childhood. Though I also don't believe people living in the past are all that mentally healthy. Which is probably why I refuse to go into depth about my own.

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Thanks for the reply...

Usually, attempting to describe my experiences, I've found it difficult to get through to people about how sick I was. They always seem ready to say "I understand what it's like", when they almost never do. I know that they don't because when I describe things I've experienced in more detail they go silent and have nothing left to say. One of my friends had a brother with a very similar diagnosis to mine who committed suicide, and another friend was hospitalised for quite different mental health problems, but I think they are they only two people I've really encountered who I have felt had any meaningful understanding of what I went through. At least so far as I am aware by having spoken with people, I haven't met other people who have been processed through the hospital system for psychiatric problems.

But maybe you and I take different approaches to these things - maybe you tend to look for common ground with others, while I seek to set myself apart from others as some sort of special snowflake. Maybe I should try harder to see similarities between the experiences of other people and my own.

Over time in disclosing information about my mental health history to acquaintances and especially to employers I have had this feeling that after that disclosure I have been seen as vulnerable, and perhaps as somehow inherently incompletely competent. This has sometimes given me the sensation that I am being treated as ever so slightly childlike, with resistance to giving me opportunities for responsibility, no matter how hard I worked. Or then again, if I am perceived differently after disclosure, maybe it's got nothing to do with mental health, but more to do with a willingness to share information that is seen as personal in a context that should be professional. Although, maybe it's all just my imagination. But in any case, I don't want to share things about myself that I'm not convinced other people will understand properly. I would rather not share this information with employers or work colleagues again, I would rather keep it private if I can, I would rather be evaluated on my work performance alone.

But in regards to being seen as vulnerable, I have sometimes thought that the dominant cultural idea is that a person who has legitimate mental health problems is seen as being dispositionally weaker, less robust mentally than other people, and more susceptible to mental breakdowns, explosions, or whatever. My own idea about all of this is that there is no "type" of person who is more susceptible to breakdown, but that when exposed to the right amount of the right kind of pressure for them, any person at all would "crack", no matter what "type" of person they are. I don't think that my idea is the culturally dominant perspective, I still think that the "weak person" perspective is the culturally dominant one. (I have no evidence at all to back this up - it is just an irrational belief of mine.)

I relate to what you said about responsibility in my own way. As I was recovering from my problems, I missed the feelings of simple, straightforward convictions that were symptomatic of my disorder - for example seeing everything as black and white, and nothing as grey. I got sick of having to constantly work work work at my disorder and part of me missed those moments when I seemed to always know what was true, or even when I was so sick that it was not possible for me to be responsible for myself. I just wanted to forget about all of it and go crazy, throw my whole life into the toilet, and never keep trying to go back towards wellness anymore. I have always hated hospital though and after the third time I was in there I promised myself I would never go back, and the desire to stay out of hospital was a powerful force in propelling me towards wellness.

Lately I've been feeling very differently about ever wanting to go back to the simplicity of depression. The shades of grey don't bother me anymore, I don't crave the simplicity of black and white, because in any case my head space is much more simple than it ever was. I'm sick of thinking about those problems I had and the enormous slab of my life that they ate up, all the time and opportunities that they wasted, and how much harder it has been for me to do things that seemed easy for all of my contemporaries, and have taken me so much longer. They're all enjoying their fabulous lives doing what they dreamed of doing, but I never seem to be able to catch up. I hate those problems, I want to forget I ever had them.

Sorry for this massive essay. Um, hope it was fun reading.

I own rifles. My government owns rifles. I love to hunt. I love to shoot. I like the smell of Hoppe's and oil. I will not be unarmed by my government. It not only is a right I have, but one I do not take lightly. With rights come responsibilities. I do not abuse my rights and I do not abuse others with those rights. There is a certain feeling of genuine accomplishment placing three shots in one hole, whether at 15 feet or at 100 yards. It is a hobby. It is a sport. People kill other people.

The news media can be as bad a problem as guns could be. People thrive on wanting to know what is going on around them.

People that take their own lives and kill others, on purpose, in the process don't come in cardboard boxes and wooden crates. I see them as weaklings; misguided and disgruntled. I see them as selfish persons. They have lost their desire to honor the rights of others. It is a terrible thing to come into contact with someone like this. Nobody deserves to die like that. People used to not think like this so often. There are games that actually teach it. They are more dangerous than the guns and an experienced teacher ever was. I feel nothing but disgust for someone to do these things. I'll not try and place them in a cardboard box with a definition of something I cannot understand. I respect the rights of others until they infringe on their fellow humankind. I also see him as a product of things he has seen or watched somewhere. Very sad for the victims. I do not feel sorry for the shooter.

No one is trying to take anyone’s guns away for the last time.
Get a clue…you need to get a license just like you to do own a car.
You reach the age, you take a safety course, you pass your test - here’s your gun.

It shouldn’t be - I am of valid age and have ID so I will go buy a gun TODAY at the fairground gun show.
That’s bullshit.
Oh my god!! Read the Constitution. “Well organized militia"

So tell me…when you are at the Mall, and someone opens fire on people, and you folks with gun carry licenses start shooting back.
Firstly, you can hit someone innocent, are you sure that’s the shooter or someone else with a gun shooting the shooter?
An off-duty cop perhaps?
Then when the cops show up are they going to mistake you for the shooter? Is some other gun carrier going to shoot you thinking you’re the shooter?
Sounds like a great plan instead of trying to enact laws to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.

And statistics are NOT on your side just FYI if you want to get into it.

Skarekrow said:

So tell me…when you are at the Mall, and someone opens fire on people, and you folks with gun carry licenses start shooting back.
Firstly, you can hit someone innocent, are you sure that’s the shooter or someone else with a gun shooting the shooter?
An off-duty cop perhaps?
Then when the cops show up are they going to mistake you for the shooter? Is some other gun carrier going to shoot you thinking you’re the shooter?
Sounds like a great plan instead of trying to enact laws to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people.

And statistics are NOT on your side just FYI if you want to get into it.

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There was a news piece that I can't find at the moment - It was a staged class the students thought was real. They showed a class of students, some experienced with guns their entire lives, others not, that were taking a concealed weapons class. A "fake" shooter walked into he room and started shooting blanks. In full gear, with guns in their hands, not a single person was able to shoot the shooter before he shot everyone in the room.

As for mental illness, I don't think it's any more suppressed here than the rest of the world. The biggest problem we have with mental illness is that the people who are supposed to be in charge of these things, themselves, have a mental illness. NPD, ADD, you name it, the people "at the top" all suffer from it too. We promote and reward narcissism so the more narcissist the person, the greater their reward. Eventually a person with a clinical condition such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder rises through the ranks and people worship them - look at Donald Trump.

Lerxst said:

There was a news piece that I can't find at the moment - It was a staged class the students thought was real. They showed a class of students, some experienced with guns their entire lives, others not, that were taking a concealed weapons class. A "fake" shooter walked into he room and started shooting blanks. In full gear, with guns in their hands, not a single person was able to shoot the shooter before he shot everyone in the room.

As for mental illness, I don't think it's any more suppressed here than the rest of the world. The biggest problem we have with mental illness is that the people who are supposed to be in charge of these things, themselves, have a mental illness. NPD, ADD, you name it, the people "at the top" all suffer from it too. We promote and reward narcissism so the more narcissist the person, the greater their reward. Eventually a person with a clinical condition such as Narcissistic Personality Disorder rises through the ranks and people worship them - look at Donald Trump.

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I couldn’t agree more.
It’s the whole raised pick-up truck mentality to drive around the 5.2’ guy with a Napoleon complex and a tiny penis to boot.
It’s in everything we are exposed to in this society…the movies, the music, our politics around the world, the games (GTA need I say more)…it says - violence, guns, etc, fix any problem…what we need are MORE people with guns to fight the crazies and criminals who will have guns anyhow (except statistically that is highly false…it DOES take guns out of the hands of criminals and besides….who the fuck besides the far right-wing conservatives are talking about taking guns away from everyone?)
Just maybe…I don’t know, of the top of my head, felons, people who are certifiably schizophrenic.
IDK…we have this extension of our penis mentality in our love of guns here in the US…it actually a bit frightening.
And my Dad had a gun, I carried a gun in the United States Coast Guard and was certified to fire the .50 cal on the front of the patrol craft…I have no qualms with anyone owning a gun if it’s done so in a common-sense manner. Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of common sense, especially in the the US (did you know most kids under 18 can’t open a can unless it has a pull-tab?) so we should enact common sense laws because this shit keeps happening.
Make people get safety certified…make them own insurance on their guns.
Two really easy things right there.

I guess "mental illness" inevitably gets drawn into it because in theory you'd have to be mentally ill in order to want to kill a bunch of innocent people.

What I'm curious about is the assumption that people who choose to do these things have been crying out for help, or that "we should have seen it coming." Society in general does not have an inherent responsibility (or ability) to glance at someone and know, "This guy looks like he's going to kill a bunch of people at some point".

But I think that it's partly a byproduct of where our culture is at today. We pay into a mental health system (and other such systems like law enforcement etc) that's not all that great of a safety net. Why? Because society is so individualist and there's no sense of community. "Throw money at the problem so someone else can take care of it because I don't want to deal with it." A glaring example of how ineffective that can be lies in the fact that (in my state at least) a person can be brought in involuntarily for a psych evaluation for letting slip that they have intent to harm others or themselves, and all they have to do is say "I don't want to harm anyone else or myself" and they're out the door. Legally, that's fine and it makes sense, but anyone who is discovered to have ill intentions can easily say the right thing to avoid evaluation or treatment.

I think there would be far less likelihood of acts like these in a society where the idea that "It takes a village to raise a child" is taken to heart. Where everybody knows and cares for everybody else, I'd wager that it would be far easier to see something like this coming, and perhaps far easier to keep someone from going down the road of taking life. This may be more possible in some smaller towns, but I don't really think it's a concept that has aged well in our society.

What can I say though? I live in that kind of a society, and I contribute to it, so I'd be a hypocrite to blame someone else for it. It's a reality that we've gradually created for ourselves and reinforced over time. "Not my problem, that's what I pay you guys (mental health/law enforcement) to take care of, and it's your fault because you failed. Maybe if we throw more money at the problem and get even more intrusive towards our own citizens, things will get better." Unfortunately, no, but until we make active efforts to recreate "community" I think this will either stay the same or get worse.

Pardon the rambling. I do like the topic. It's thought-provoking.

Edit: So, I guess what I'm saying is that it's more of an issue of societal illness than mental illness...

Sloe Djinn said:

I guess "mental illness" inevitably gets drawn into it because in theory you'd have to be mentally ill in order to want to kill a bunch of innocent people.

What I'm curious about is the assumption that people who choose to do these things have been crying out for help, or that "we should have seen it coming." Society in general does not have an inherent responsibility (or ability) to glance at someone and know, "This guy looks like he's going to kill a bunch of people at some point".

But I think that it's partly a byproduct of where our culture is at today. We pay into a mental health system (and other such systems like law enforcement etc) that's not all that great of a safety net. Why? Because society is so individualist and there's no sense of community. "Throw money at the problem so someone else can take care of it because I don't want to deal with it." A glaring example of how ineffective that can be lies in the fact that (in my state at least) a person can be brought in involuntarily for a psych evaluation for letting slip that they have intent to harm others or themselves, and all they have to do is say "I don't want to harm anyone else or myself" and they're out the door. Legally, that's fine and it makes sense, but anyone who is discovered to have ill intentions can easily say the right thing to avoid evaluation or treatment.

I think there would be far less likelihood of acts like these in a society where the idea that "It takes a village to raise a child" is taken to heart. Where everybody knows and cares for everybody else, I'd wager that it would be far easier to see something like this coming, and perhaps far easier to keep someone from going down the road of taking life. This may be more possible in some smaller towns, but I don't really think it's a concept that has aged well in our society.

What can I say though? I live in that kind of a society, and I contribute to it, so I'd be a hypocrite to blame someone else for it. It's a reality that we've gradually created for ourselves and reinforced over time. "Not my problem, that's what I pay you guys (mental health/law enforcement) to take care of, and it's your fault because you failed. Maybe if we throw more money at the problem and get even more intrusive towards our own citizens, things will get better." Unfortunately, no, but until we make active efforts to recreate "community" I think this will either stay the same or get worse.

Pardon the rambling. I do like the topic. It's thought-provoking.

Edit: So, I guess what I'm saying is that it's more of an issue of societal illness than mental illness...

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That’s the gist of what the video I posted said.
If we are going to blame the “mental health problem” in America every time there is a mass shooting and avoid any gun legislation, then let’s put our money where our mouths are and come up with a really solid mental health program here in the US.
Alas…it’s more political fodder to separate us as a community, not bring us together which I agree - would help immensely.

This:

Sloe Djinn said:

"It takes a village to raise a child" is taken to heart. Where everybody knows and cares for everybody else, I'd wager that it would be far easier to see something like this coming, and perhaps far easier to keep someone from going down the road of taking life. This may be more possible in some smaller towns, but I don't really think it's a concept that has aged well in our society.

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Humans evolved as members of small family/community groups. Our initial survival counted on mutual caring. we are a tribal species with a deep need to belong. isolation is unhealthy for us on so many levels. and I hear so many people every day say how alone they are surrounded by countless throngs. maybe it's time to get back primordial values. maybe we've gotten too big (and too anonymous) for our britches. maybe our continued survival depends on the same sense of belonging.

Lol, I just looked back at the previous posts. I just said what you guys already said earlier. My post was just more rambling and poorly-worded =)

A day late and a dollar short!