Why Metaphysics fails to be adequate? | Page 6 | INFJ Forum

Why Metaphysics fails to be adequate?

Skarekrow said:
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The universe is made out of quantum energy.
Our minds are quantum energy, which are trying to figure out what the universe is.
We are quantum energy trying to figure itself out.
Click to expand...

Yes. What's more though, is that we are the universe looking at itself through illusions and ideas about things.

Take telekinesis for example. All kinesis is actually telekinesis. Why is that? Well, tele means distance, and kinesis means movement. So telekinesis is moving something from a distance, which is what everything does through the electromagnetic force, or gravity.

So for example when you apply your brakes on your car, the braking surfaces never actually touch each other. They make friction, but what friction actually is, is two surfaces coming so close that the molecular and atomic bonds influence each other, through electromagnetic forces. But they don't touch. When you apply the brakes, the molecules and atoms of the brakes try to impart kinetic energy to the wheels, which in turn try to impart kinetic energy into the road, knocking all the molecules around inside and displacing them, deforming the surfaces as they try to mesh and breaking some of the electromagnetic bonds. So your bakes get worn and shiny, bits of them fly off as brake dust, and you maybe leave some rubber on the road.

When the electromagnetic bonds are stretched, it's because the surfaces are taking up kinetic energy, like rubber bands they have resistance by being bound together - but this energy can't just disappear, so if the molecules don't snap the bonds and fly off into space, what happens? They disperse the energy as vibration and heat. But they never actually touched each other.
 
I'm torn, I don't know whether to say...

sprinkles said:
Yes. What's more though, is that we are the universe looking at itself through illusions and ideas about things.
Click to expand...

How do you know that everything isn't actually made up of the universe's ideas and illusions?

I observe the oneness of the universe so this kind of personification of the universe's delusional introspection isn't that much of a stretch for me. (I call myself a Nihilistic Taoist, if you're wondering, which isn't quite a religion.)

or...

Take telekinesis for example. All kinesis is actually telekinesis. Why is that? Well, tele means distance, and kinesis means movement. So telekinesis is moving something from a distance, which is what everything does through the electromagnetic force, or gravity.

So for example when you apply your brakes on your car, the braking surfaces never actually touch each other. They make friction, but what friction actually is, is two surfaces coming so close that the molecular and atomic bonds influence each other, through electromagnetic forces. But they don't touch. When you apply the brakes, the molecules and atoms of the brakes try to impart kinetic energy to the wheels, which in turn try to impart kinetic energy into the road, knocking all the molecules around inside and displacing them, deforming the surfaces as they try to mesh and breaking some of the electromagnetic bonds. So your bakes get worn and shiny, bits of them fly off as brake dust, and you maybe leave some rubber on the road.

When the electromagnetic bonds are stretched, it's because the surfaces are taking up kinetic energy, like rubber bands they have resistance by being bound together - but this energy can't just disappear, so if the molecules don't snap the bonds and fly off into space, what happens? They disperse the energy as vibration and heat. But they never actually touched each other.
Click to expand...

This is achieving magic by semantics. When people say that an object is touching another object in casual speech, the definition of touch is at the electromagnetic level. Switching language contexts to achieve magic reminds me of the things people say to prove that they technically weren't cheating. "Only my magnetic field touched the condom which touched the magnetic field of the other person. We never actually had contact and therefore could not have had intercourse."

But of course I'm either a hypocrite or devil's advocate for making both arguments unless you ignore the Newton's law of non-contradiction which I think is typically allowed within quantum physics and metaphysics. :)
 
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sprinkles said:
Yes. What's more though, is that we are the universe looking at itself through illusions and ideas about things.

Take telekinesis for example. All kinesis is actually telekinesis. Why is that? Well, tele means distance, and kinesis means movement. So telekinesis is moving something from a distance, which is what everything does through the electromagnetic force, or gravity.

So for example when you apply your brakes on your car, the braking surfaces never actually touch each other. They make friction, but what friction actually is, is two surfaces coming so close that the molecular and atomic bonds influence each other, through electromagnetic forces. But they don't touch. When you apply the brakes, the molecules and atoms of the brakes try to impart kinetic energy to the wheels, which in turn try to impart kinetic energy into the road, knocking all the molecules around inside and displacing them, deforming the surfaces as they try to mesh and breaking some of the electromagnetic bonds. So your bakes get worn and shiny, bits of them fly off as brake dust, and you maybe leave some rubber on the road.

When the electromagnetic bonds are stretched, it's because the surfaces are taking up kinetic energy, like rubber bands they have resistance by being bound together - but this energy can't just disappear, so if the molecules don't snap the bonds and fly off into space, what happens? They disperse the energy as vibration and heat. But they never actually touched each other.
Click to expand...

Well then, perhaps we are all part of what some would call “God”...just one gigantic neural-net of sorts...a pantheistic view?
If so, then God is also questioning his existence and purpose through the curiosity in each of us...
Or perhaps there is no purpose...only unlimited curiosity...
Yes, I understand the physics of why brakes make a car stop....but we still do not understand what really causes the electromagnetic forces created....we have ideas and theories....but gravity is probably the most misunderstood concept most people think they understand. It is not just an apple falling onto Newton’s head.
Gravity...as we understand it is actually a curvature of space/time....electromagnetism is the exchange of virtual photons, just as gravity is the exchange of virtual gravitons....none of this can be proven of course...not yet....as these things are thought to exist near the Planck scale....far smaller than the particles being played with in particle accelerators....in regards to this thread, one could say that metaphysics and magical forces or no different when you try to describe how something could be manipulated by one’s own mind....who is to say that something in our minds cannot manipulate gravitons....we just don’t know, because we don’t even know that they exist.....similarly, one could make the same argument for a human soul.
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]

Yup, that's true.

Also interestingly, there's conservation of mass - ok. Conservation of energy - ok. Conservation of momentum - ok.
But there's no conservation of volume. Why is that? Because molecules can fit between other molecules. So for example if you take 50ml of water and 50ml of methanol and mix them together, you don't end up with 100ml of water/alcohol mixture, you end up with less than that because water is a smaller molecule and can bond with the methanol molecules in an area where the methanol molecules can't bond to each other. Basically there is space, as always.

The big issue I have is that metaphysics means "beyond physics" which is a bit anthropocentric. It assumes we have an understanding of physics enough to claim that something can be more than physics - i.e. this is what we know and there's more mysterious things out there "beyond the laws of nature". I find this to be absurd because normal physics itself is already not entirely understood.

This would be like saying the Americas were metaphysical before being discovered. It's not metaphysical at all, it was just unknown. It's really a silly distinction that only gets in the way.

There's only nature and nature that we don't understand yet. This other stuff is subjective nonsense, being like some ancient person who would have called you mad if you decided that the earth was not a disc on the back of turtles.
 
[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
268991_253347811472124_1781092463_n.png
According to Dr. Hameroff of the University of Arizona and British physicist Sir Roger Penrosen, when the heart stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed. So could this explain near-death experiences, or the idea of our consciousness being eternal?:

"The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. It's possible that the quantum information can exist outside the body, perhaps indefinitely, as a soul," he said. They have argued that our experience of consciousness is the result of quantum gravity effects in these microtubules, a theory which they dubbed orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR).

Thus it is held that our souls are more than the interaction of neurons in the brain. They are in fact constructed from the very fabric of the universe - and may have existed since the beginning of time. So yes, there is a part of your consciousness that is non-material and will live on after the death of your physical body.
To read the whole article - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...tients-brought-brink-death.html#axzz2JyudSqhB or http://www.news.com.au/news/quantum-scientists-offer-proof-soul-exists/story-fnenjnc3-1226507686757

Also, this article was very interesting as well... http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes






​
 
sprinkles said:
@Skarekrow

Yup, that's true.

Also interestingly, there's conservation of mass - ok. Conservation of energy - ok. Conservation of momentum - ok.
But there's no conservation of volume. Why is that? Because molecules can fit between other molecules. So for example if you take 50ml of water and 50ml of methanol and mix them together, you don't end up with 100ml of water/alcohol mixture, you end up with less than that because water is a smaller molecule and can bond with the methanol molecules in an area where the methanol molecules can't bond to each other. Basically there is space, as always.

The big issue I have is that metaphysics means "beyond physics" which is a bit anthropocentric. It assumes we have an understanding of physics enough to claim that something can be more than physics - i.e. this is what we know and there's more mysterious things out there "beyond the laws of nature". I find this to be absurd because normal physics itself is already not entirely understood.

This would be like saying the Americas were metaphysical before being discovered. It's not metaphysical at all, it was just unknown. It's really a silly distinction that only gets in the way.

There's only nature and nature that we don't understand yet. This other stuff is subjective nonsense, being like some ancient person who would have called you mad if you decided that the earth was not a disc on the back of turtles.
Click to expand...
I don’t view the word “metaphysics” as being the literal translation....I look at it more as being beyond our understanding as of yet just as you mentioned about the discovery of the Americas.
I get what you are saying though.
 
Skarekrow said:
[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
268991_253347811472124_1781092463_n.png
According to Dr. Hameroff of the University of Arizona and British physicist Sir Roger Penrosen, when the heart stops beating, the blood stops flowing, and the microtubules lose their quantum state, the quantum information in the microtubules isn't destroyed. So could this explain near-death experiences, or the idea of our consciousness being eternal?:

"The quantum information within the microtubules is not destroyed, it can't be destroyed, it just distributes and dissipates to the universe at large. It's possible that the quantum information can exist outside the body, perhaps indefinitely, as a soul," he said. They have argued that our experience of consciousness is the result of quantum gravity effects in these microtubules, a theory which they dubbed orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR).

Thus it is held that our souls are more than the interaction of neurons in the brain. They are in fact constructed from the very fabric of the universe - and may have existed since the beginning of time. So yes, there is a part of your consciousness that is non-material and will live on after the death of your physical body.
To read the whole article - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...tients-brought-brink-death.html#axzz2JyudSqhB or http://www.news.com.au/news/quantum-scientists-offer-proof-soul-exists/story-fnenjnc3-1226507686757

Also, this article was very interesting as well... http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/biocentrism/201112/does-the-soul-exist-evidence-says-yes






​
Click to expand...

I partially agree with this. The information cannot be destroyed. According to the conservation of mass, momentum, and energy, the universe is one unit of entropy. The building blocks, if you will, are not destroyed - this includes 'you', which is why I subscribe that rebirth is possible.

However, what information is can be a tricky concept. Information is actually the arrangement of the aforementioned building blocks. There isn't really a you, and this is the reason that you do not have a soul. It's not that souls are impossible, it's that there's really no 'you' to have one.

This is because of the way information is formed and propagated. It's just like watching this message on your monitor - the energy that brings it to you does not go away since it can't be destroyed, but it is the computer and the screen which gives it the arrangement and form.

Or to put it differently, you can take two electrons and put them in a binary adder, or you can take those two electrons and put them in a memory cell. Which option you choose determines the state of information that those electrons take up for the time being. The electrons convey different information before, during, and after this operation - the thing that changes is the circuit you put them in (or not having a circuit).
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]
Or put it this way. You are to universe as a finger is to the body.

Is a finger a soul? It's an appendage of a greater whole, isn't it? That's also what you are.
 
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sprinkles said:
I partially agree with this. The information cannot be destroyed. According to the conservation of mass, momentum, and energy, the universe is one unit of entropy. The building blocks, if you will, are not destroyed - this includes 'you', which is why I subscribe that rebirth is possible.

However, what information is can be a tricky concept. Information is actually the arrangement of the aforementioned building blocks. There isn't really a you, and this is the reason that you do not have a soul. It's not that souls are impossible, it's that there's really no 'you' to have one.

This is because of the way information is formed and propagated. It's just like watching this message on your monitor - the energy that brings it to you does not go away since it can't be destroyed, but it is the computer and the screen which gives it the arrangement and form.

Or to put it differently, you can take two electrons and put them in a binary adder, or you can take those two electrons and put them in a memory cell. Which option you choose determines the state of information that those electrons take up for the time being. The electrons convey different information before, during, and after this operation - the thing that changes is the circuit you put them in (or not having a circuit).
Click to expand...

sprinkles said:
@Skarekrow
Or put it this way. You are to universe as a finger is to the body.

Is a finger a soul? It's an appendage of a greater whole, isn't it? That's also what you are.
Click to expand...

I dunno....I think this is where you and I disagree semantically.
While I understand that the idea of a soul as an egotistical belief, I also believe that the idea came from somewhere in our subconscious...or more specifically the subconscious memories held deep within our “soul”.
And while I also do agree with you that we are merely a infinitesimal part of the universe at large...I don’t understand why we still cannot be a precious thing...being life.
I don’t feel that it was an accident that we have come into being, nor do I think that it is an accident that we have the ability to question our own existence.
I feel that we have a purpose....what that is no one will ever know until our own death.
Perhaps we dissipate and return to the “source” of it all...perhaps our life-force or “soul” just continuously inhabits the next body time after time.
I am sure whatever it is, it is far beyond the comprehension we have the ability to understand.
I don’t believe that we are nothing but a biological computer and nothing more...it’s hard for me to describe in good detail...but I have witnessed souls leaving someone’s body upon their death. I think a good portion of people in the medical field would tell you the same.
I have seen people who are being kept alive by respirators and pacing wires whom I could tell you with all certainty are no longer there...as such, I could take the same circumstances and tell you that their “soul” is still there. I have also seen people whom by every stretch should still be there....healthy, young, etc.
And yet....when that moment comes when their heart stops....when we start CPR...there is a moment of change...very subtle...I cannot describe it any other way than a change in energy of the room. This was the same when my Father was dying of cancer...I believe that his “soul” left some time before his body actually shut down...he was no longer there...I could almost say that it is like people who claim to see auras...you could say that it is all in my head, but I know what I know and for the most part I am a very logically thinking person when it comes to medicine...you have to be in order to do the job properly, you have to push emotions and feelings to one side...but this is the one constant that I have never been able to ignore.
 
Maybe you all don't have enough faith in humanity i feel that as humanity's collective knowledge grows and evolves that we will come to understand the inner workings of the universe or we will come to understand that understanding the universe is truly futile, sadly this wont happen within our lifetimes.
 
Skarekrow said:
I dunno....I think this is where you and I disagree semantically.
While I understand that the idea of a soul as an egotistical belief, I also believe that the idea came from somewhere in our subconscious...or more specifically the subconscious memories held deep within our “soul”.
And while I also do agree with you that we are merely a infinitesimal part of the universe at large...I don’t understand why we still cannot be a precious thing...being life.
I don’t feel that it was an accident that we have come into being, nor do I think that it is an accident that we have the ability to question our own existence.
I feel that we have a purpose....what that is no one will ever know until our own death.
Perhaps we dissipate and return to the “source” of it all...perhaps our life-force or “soul” just continuously inhabits the next body time after time.
I am sure whatever it is, it is far beyond the comprehension we have the ability to understand.
I don’t believe that we are nothing but a biological computer and nothing more...it’s hard for me to describe in good detail...but I have witnessed souls leaving someone’s body upon their death. I think a good portion of people in the medical field would tell you the same.
I have seen people who are being kept alive by respirators and pacing wires whom I could tell you with all certainty are no longer there...as such, I could take the same circumstances and tell you that their “soul” is still there. I have also seen people whom by every stretch should still be there....healthy, young, etc.
And yet....when that moment comes when their heart stops....when we start CPR...there is a moment of change...very subtle...I cannot describe it any other way than a change in energy of the room. This was the same when my Father was dying of cancer...I believe that his “soul” left some time before his body actually shut down...he was no longer there...I could almost say that it is like people who claim to see auras...you could say that it is all in my head, but I know what I know and for the most part I am a very logically thinking person when it comes to medicine...you have to be in order to do the job properly, you have to push emotions and feelings to one side...but this is the one constant that I have never been able to ignore.
Click to expand...

Sorry for not getting back to you, the forum has missed some notifications to me a few times lately.

I didn't mean to say that life is insignificant or not precious. I was simply pointing out that there is no separation.

All things are made of things and dependent on things so all things are aggregates. The Daoists had invented in ancient times one of the first known uses of binary to describe this phenomenon. They postulated the bagua, eight binary trigram symbols which are meant to describe the fundamental nature of reality, and further expounded on this in the I Ching, expanding to 64 hexagram pairs. All to describe a world in motion, and imagine what is happening and why. Notice how this does not focus on structures, but rather focuses on elements.

Remember when I asked at what point does a potato stop being a potato? This also applies here.

At what point did you even become alive? How many cell divisions must take place from the egg before there is a you? I mean for about 12 hours after conception, you're a single celled organism. Is that you? If not, when does it become you? This is also ignoring the living chain of material that has gone on for thousands, or millions of years, because you were once part of someone else's body, and they part of the body before them. You didn't just arrive, no. It took the age of the universe to get you here. Your great great great [...] great grandparents are the stars. Quite literally your ancestor and elder is the universe itself.
 
sprinkles said:
Sorry for not getting back to you, the forum has missed some notifications to me a few times lately.

I didn't mean to say that life is insignificant or not precious. I was simply pointing out that there is no separation.

All things are made of things and dependent on things so all things are aggregates. The Daoists had invented in ancient times one of the first known uses of binary to describe this phenomenon. They postulated the bagua, eight binary trigram symbols which are meant to describe the fundamental nature of reality, and further expounded on this in the I Ching, expanding to 64 hexagram pairs. All to describe a world in motion, and imagine what is happening and why. Notice how this does not focus on structures, but rather focuses on elements.

Remember when I asked at what point does a potato stop being a potato? This also applies here.

At what point did you even become alive? How many cell divisions must take place from the egg before there is a you? I mean for about 12 hours after conception, you're a single celled organism. Is that you? If not, when does it become you? This is also ignoring the living chain of material that has gone on for thousands, or millions of years, because you were once part of someone else's body, and they part of the body before them. You didn't just arrive, no. It took the age of the universe to get you here. Your great great great [...] great grandparents are the stars. Quite literally your ancestor and elder is the universe itself.
Click to expand...

I know you didn’t mean that life is insignificant...and yes, I think it is wonderful and mind-blowing that the elements we are made of once came from a star, and all the livings things that once were make up parts of who we are now...it is truly incredible! But, I still do not submit to the fact that we have no “soul”...that we are the sums of past parts and energies and have no separation from what makes us “us”. I have been exposed to a lot of stories about children who remember how they die...who they were in a past life, etc. They have some absolute knowledge about their life before...to me this is even more convincing evidence that we are not just a biological computer of sorts....or that our energies just dissipate and become a melange of other energies to become a new person...there is something that keeps the energies individuals...what I would call a “soul”. Perhaps energy at one point in time had it’s own evolution of sorts...from “single-cell” energies into something more complex and capable of consciousness? Yes...it all came from the same source....yes, we are all actually interconnected on a quantum level....but why shouldn’t energies become a “soul”? To me it makes sense that something such as quantum energy could evolve into something that could figure it’s own self out of sorts. What is the question that has puzzled mankind since the beginning of time? “Why are we here....where did we come from....what is our purpose?” I think we could very well be just a slight step into the evolution of our souls into something even more incredible. What is it that makes an organism evolve? Difficulty....lack of something....protection....or in the case of humans, the ability to adapt by using our minds and problem solving. Perhaps that is our purpose for being on this planet and inhabiting these bodies...perhaps we have knowing created our own difficulties and strife in the pursuit of evolving?
Yes, we are one....and perhaps one day we will share the collective knowledge that was learned here and evolve into something incredible and beautiful.
 
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KuroShiro said:
Maybe you all don't have enough faith in humanity i feel that as humanity's collective knowledge grows and evolves that we will come to understand the inner workings of the universe or we will come to understand that understanding the universe is truly futile, sadly this wont happen within our lifetimes.
Click to expand...
I actually don’t have much faith in humanity....lol. I think we will kill ourselves off in the next few hundred years or so....
But I do agree that our collective knowledge is growing....the question is...will that knowledge be applied in time to save ourselves? Will our minds evolve enough to live peacefully with one another and our environment? Just as I posted above...I do believe in a “soul” of sorts...and I do think that part of our reason for being here is to learn...what the grand lesson is I don’t think anyone can say for sure. Perhaps there is no grand lesson....no singular answer...but it is all in the pursuit of knowledge...good, evil, it’s all relative. I agree that it probably will not happen within our lifetimes being lived now...but I do not believe that is the end...I think we choose to come back again and again or not...I think it is the choice of our individual “souls”.
One way or the other, it will all become clear sooner than we think...lol.
 
Skarekrow said:
I actually don’t have much faith in humanity....lol. I think we will kill ourselves off in the next few hundred years or so....
But I do agree that our collective knowledge is growing....the question is...will that knowledge be applied in time to save ourselves? Will our minds evolve enough to live peacefully with one another and our environment? Just as I posted above...I do believe in a “soul” of sorts...and I do think that part of our reason for being here is to learn...what the grand lesson is I don’t think anyone can say for sure. Perhaps there is no grand lesson....no singular answer...but it is all in the pursuit of knowledge...good, evil, it’s all relative. I agree that it probably will not happen within our lifetimes being lived now...but I do not believe that is the end...I think we choose to come back again and again or not...I think it is the choice of our individual “souls”.
One way or the other, it will all become clear sooner than we think...lol.
Click to expand...

One part of me believes in a "Consciousness" synonymous to a "soul", and the critical side of me states that its ideal for humans to believe that his or her "self" will live on past the physical limits of our bodies. For our "soul" to survive the ends of our physical binding would be an enlightening experience. The question will be answered when we meet our end. If there is a choice, to come back into existence i feel it will depend on our "will".
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]
Ok, lets see if I can make it more clear what I mean.

According to the principle of entropy, the universe is like a jar of marbles. The state of the universe is how the marbles sit in the jar, and entropy is a measure of how much those marbles are able to move around and create new arrangements.

The number of marbles in the jar is the same always. When you were born, nothing new was added to the universe jar - a marble was moved from one place to another, displacing other marbles, which represents everything about you and your entire effect on the world.

When somebody dies, nothing is removed from the universe jar, some marbles move and displace other marbles.

Marbles moving other marbles can cause people to be born or die. Cause people to be happy or sad. Some marbles represent a sunny day but moving those marbles causes heat stroke in some people.

So if anything, it isn't necessary for you to be a unique substance, entropy feedback with the universe is enough to account for your perceived uniqueness. That is what information is, perceived uniqueness - when you can't discern it anymore that means the information has fallen into entropy, but its substance has not left. Soul is also not required as a unique substance in order to perceive universe feedback which gives the illusion of soul. It doesn't need to be a separate thing because existing things interacting with each other in specific ways is enough to produce the effect.
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]
Also consider the idea that perhaps what we call a mind is not dependent entirely on the brain.

Maybe the universe is like a mainframe and your brain is just a terminal borrowing CPU cycles. Maybe the universe is doing all the big calculations and you're just uploading and downloading.
 
KuroShiro said:
One part of me believes in a "Consciousness" synonymous to a "soul", and the critical side of me states that its ideal for humans to believe that his or her "self" will live on past the physical limits of our bodies. For our "soul" to survive the ends of our physical binding would be an enlightening experience. The question will be answered when we meet our end. If there is a choice, to come back into existence i feel it will depend on our "will".
Click to expand...

I agree with you...I tend to believe that when we die it will be similar to waking from a dream in this life....when you are dreaming you don’t realize that it isn’t real, you don’t remember that you are laying asleep in your bed at the moment...you don’t realize that the details aren’t as clear and defined as they are when you are awake.
I think when we die it will be similar to that...that we will realize all that we once/should/will know and it will be kind of an “ah-ha” or “oh yes” moment for us all...and we will see the true reality of it all.
 
sprinkles said:
@Skarekrow
Ok, lets see if I can make it more clear what I mean.

According to the principle of entropy, the universe is like a jar of marbles. The state of the universe is how the marbles sit in the jar, and entropy is a measure of how much those marbles are able to move around and create new arrangements.

The number of marbles in the jar is the same always. When you were born, nothing new was added to the universe jar - a marble was moved from one place to another, displacing other marbles, which represents everything about you and your entire effect on the world.

When somebody dies, nothing is removed from the universe jar, some marbles move and displace other marbles.

Marbles moving other marbles can cause people to be born or die. Cause people to be happy or sad. Some marbles represent a sunny day but moving those marbles causes heat stroke in some people.

So if anything, it isn't necessary for you to be a unique substance, entropy feedback with the universe is enough to account for your perceived uniqueness. That is what information is, perceived uniqueness - when you can't discern it anymore that means the information has fallen into entropy, but its substance has not left. Soul is also not required as a unique substance in order to perceive universe feedback which gives the illusion of soul. It doesn't need to be a separate thing because existing things interacting with each other in specific ways is enough to produce the effect.
Click to expand...

sprinkles said:
@Skarekrow
Also consider the idea that perhaps what we call a mind is not dependent entirely on the brain.

Maybe the universe is like a mainframe and your brain is just a terminal borrowing CPU cycles. Maybe the universe is doing all the big calculations and you're just uploading and downloading.
Click to expand...
I really do understand what you are saying sprinkles...but I don’t understand why there still cannot be individualism amongst the marbles....yes, we are all in the jar...and yes, the movement affects us....but why can’t each marble have it’s own “will”? I understand the idea of - the soul only being a representation of our ego wanting to be special and unique......and I know that it isn’t necessary to be unique to be in the jar.....but that thought doesn’t make it so. Who is to say that we are not unique? Perhaps it is necessary for us to BE unique in order for the entropy of the jar to work properly? Maybe that is the whole reason for there to be a jar in the first place?
Maybe...the reason for the jar is to make us/create the uniqueness that is necessary for a “soul” to exist. Perhaps, just the thought of trying to understand the universe and what it all means is the desired effect for our creation? Yes, we may be in a jar....but doesn’t the idea of one marble wondering to other marbles “what is outside the jar?” have a cascading effect on other marbles? So wouldn’t that initial idea be considered unique and therefore so would that marble?

Maybe we are all part of a mainframe like you state...but isn’t each terminal an independent processor of information or a task? Sure when a computer is in one piece we think of it casually as a “computer” being one thing...but of course it is made of many individual and “unique” parts...each one necessary for the complete creation to work. If we are all part of an immense “computer” of sorts, then one has to also be sure that it goes beyond our own understanding of computation...beyond any artificial intelligence we could possible think of...beyond the pinprick of quantum physics that we have delved into. So why is the thought, the idea of a “soul”...a unique individual creation so far off? It’s really only semantics sprinkles...it isn’t less logical to think of the possibility that we do have a soul to think of us as just part of the entropy of the universe and not being unique at all. I personally believe that the idea of a soul isn’t just my ego talking.
 
[MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]
Because we aren't unique even by our own standards. We want to identify and find so much common ground with others that we really secretly want to be the same rather than unique.

The closest thing we have to being unique is DNA and that is only from combinatorial probability. i.e. DNA is unique because it is complicated enough that having the same DNA by chance is incredibly unlikely, but not actually impossible.

You are too much like everything else to be unique though. What you are is individuated. Like a car with a license plate.

Everything is made of the same stuff.
Everything is made of recycled stuff that used to be other things.
The amount of stuff does not increase.

To me it's like taking a red shirt, dying it purple, and calling it a new shirt. Yeah it's different now but it's the same shirt.
I do not say we are unique because in my mind we are literally and physically not by any stretch of my imagination.
 
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