Mad Men typing | INFJ Forum

Mad Men typing

MiniHands

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May 5, 2012
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Not sure if a thread like this already exists, but what do you guys think?

Don Draper: ISFP (or ISTP?)
Roger Sterling: ESTP
Peggy Olson: INTJ?
Joan Harris: ESFJ
Betty Draper: ESFP (a very lonely one)
Bert Cooper: INTP?
Harry Crane: ENFP
 
Not sure if a thread like this already exists, but what do you guys think?

Don Draper: ISFP (or ISTP?)
Roger Sterling: ESTP
Peggy Olson: INTJ?
Joan Harris: ESFJ
Betty Draper: ESFP (a very lonely one)
Bert Cooper: INTP?
Harry Crane: ENFP

MiniHands, I've got a suggestion for you, there is this guy on youtube called Dave Super Powers, and he talks about how to tell what people's personality types are using facial cues and expressions/nonexpressions. I think you might need to work on how you type people, because I didn't see any reasoning for why you thought that these people were these types, and also because some of these types that you assigned seem off. I might recommend reading more about these various personality types. I know when I first got into this, I focused mainly on only certain personality types, and would more often type people as those types, until I finally evolved more with this system.


Don Draper is an ENTJ- because of his position as leader, his extroverted intuition which he uses when he makes pitches, his inability to self-reflect and his lack of feeling- I don't know how many times I've heard him say "I don't feel anything," he is not an ISFP. ISFPs are usually very soft spoken, have a hard time with pressure of any sort, and are more of creative types that are very in their own world. They are also very sensitive and respond very poorly to criticism of any sort. Don Draper uses his conversation with other people as a means of thinking about ideas- aka that's how he gets his energy, which is why he is an extrovert. He is intuitive because he tends to take leaps in intuitive thinking- he'll think of things nobody has thought of. He is a T, because he is not in touch with feeling, in a sense he doesn't know how to feel. But one of the things about the functions is that as we age we begin to have to confront shadow functions that we haven't dealt with, which makes sense that about midway through his life he might start to "begin" to feel. As far as whether or not he is a J or P, he is very critical, very hard on himself and others, he might not follow the rules to a "T", but he thrives off of deadlines, prefers people to be brief in conversation, and likes things short, simple and direct.

Peggy Olsen is an ISFP- she is not a visionary, she works within a frame work, she works alone. She likes to follow the rules, but has a creative energy. She goes to church even though she doesn't believe in it, and has a certain sense of social duty and social conduct. (As a side note to Minihands- INTJ is the mastermind, a person who thinks in systems and who is very visionary, I did not see any of that with Peggy. If Peggy was an INTJ she wouldn't be going to church just to pacify her mother, INTJs are very unconventional socially. I know because my partner is one.)

The big thing about whether or not someone is an introvert is how they get their energy- do they get it by being around people or by being alone?

If they are a sensor they are more likely not to have leaps in thinking, or have unique ideas- they like to follow rules, and codes of conduct.

If they are a J or a P, it often times will show in whether they make moral judgments or if they abstain from moral judgments, and is also reflected in the clothes that they wear. J's tend to wear tighter, more fitted clothing. P's tend to wear loose clothing that might be considered baggy.

Betty Draper would probably be an INFJ. My reasoning for this is that she is very introverted, she feels most comfortable with one or two friends over as opposed to a big group- she tends to stress out in big group situations. She is very much a feeler, she goes off of her gut feeling, and is fairly expressive in her emotions. She is also fairly controlled by her emotions. She tends to brood and hold in how she feels, while acting cool and reserved. I feel like being hard to read is a calling card of INFJs. As far as intuition goes, she tends to pick up on subtleties and energies and take leaps of faith with her feeling and intuition. She is also very expressive in what she wears, and very much a perfectionist. She is not totally a traditionalist- she hangs out with divorcees and other questionable people. She is not assertive or dominant in any way- which is more of an ESFP calling card. I think she is an idealist, because more and more when she is confronted with people and the way they behave she becomes very depressed and disillusioned. And she is such a J! Everything about her has to be controlled- she is very strict with the kids, she morally judges her husband, her father and her friends. She also has good advice and is a confidant. She is willing to take risks that she believes in, which is another reason I think she is intuitive. If she was a P, chances are she wouldn't be so well groomed, and she might be fine with more questionable behavior- because P's don't judge!


I would like to go over all the other types on that show, but first a recommendation, please when you guess what types they are, write down the reasons, and then you will truly get the answer.
 
The other thing to keep in mind, is that when people don't know their strengths or where to get them, they tend to show behavior that might be misleading. They might be acting out of their shadow functions, or be experimenting with certain amounts of extraversion/introversion, sensing, etc. Your confusion about Don Draper is that he might seem to be an ISFP, might partially be because he does not know who he is, and on that search of knowledge of the self, he acts out with his shadow function which actually might be ISFP- tender, delicate, and deeply hurt by criticism.

There's a reason that the opening scene of Mad Men is a man falling from the top of a building- he has reached the pinnacle of "success" only to realize he's chased an illusion, and must fall back to earth. In my humble opinion the show is all about the process of individuation for Don Draper. He's constructed a life that he thought he should construct, based on social mandates, and slowly, using his intuition he begins to realize how false everything is.

This is a great premise, because it is also echoed by the change of the time- the 50s to the 60s, talk about a radical transformation.

Sorry, I love this show, I digress.
 
MiniHands, I've got a suggestion for you, there is this guy on youtube called Dave Super Powers, and he talks about how to tell what people's personality types are using facial cues and expressions/nonexpressions. I think you might need to work on how you type people, because I didn't see any reasoning for why you thought that these people were these types, and also because some of these types that you assigned seem off. I might recommend reading more about these various personality types. I know when I first got into this, I focused mainly on only certain personality types, and would more often type people as those types, until I finally evolved more with this system.


Don Draper is an ENTJ- because of his position as leader, his extroverted intuition which he uses when he makes pitches, his inability to self-reflect and his lack of feeling- I don't know how many times I've heard him say "I don't feel anything," he is not an ISFP. ISFPs are usually very soft spoken, have a hard time with pressure of any sort, and are more of creative types that are very in their own world. They are also very sensitive and respond very poorly to criticism of any sort. Don Draper uses his conversation with other people as a means of thinking about ideas- aka that's how he gets his energy, which is why he is an extrovert. He is intuitive because he tends to take leaps in intuitive thinking- he'll think of things nobody has thought of. He is a T, because he is not in touch with feeling, in a sense he doesn't know how to feel. But one of the things about the functions is that as we age we begin to have to confront shadow functions that we haven't dealt with, which makes sense that about midway through his life he might start to "begin" to feel. As far as whether or not he is a J or P, he is very critical, very hard on himself and others, he might not follow the rules to a "T", but he thrives off of deadlines, prefers people to be brief in conversation, and likes things short, simple and direct.

Peggy Olsen is an ISFP- she is not a visionary, she works within a frame work, she works alone. She likes to follow the rules, but has a creative energy. She goes to church even though she doesn't believe in it, and has a certain sense of social duty and social conduct. (As a side note to Minihands- INTJ is the mastermind, a person who thinks in systems and who is very visionary, I did not see any of that with Peggy. If Peggy was an INTJ she wouldn't be going to church just to pacify her mother, INTJs are very unconventional socially. I know because my partner is one.)

The big thing about whether or not someone is an introvert is how they get their energy- do they get it by being around people or by being alone?

If they are a sensor they are more likely not to have leaps in thinking, or have unique ideas- they like to follow rules, and codes of conduct.

If they are a J or a P, it often times will show in whether they make moral judgments or if they abstain from moral judgments, and is also reflected in the clothes that they wear. J's tend to wear tighter, more fitted clothing. P's tend to wear loose clothing that might be considered baggy.

Betty Draper would probably be an INFJ. My reasoning for this is that she is very introverted, she feels most comfortable with one or two friends over as opposed to a big group- she tends to stress out in big group situations. She is very much a feeler, she goes off of her gut feeling, and is fairly expressive in her emotions. She is also fairly controlled by her emotions. She tends to brood and hold in how she feels, while acting cool and reserved. I feel like being hard to read is a calling card of INFJs. As far as intuition goes, she tends to pick up on subtleties and energies and take leaps of faith with her feeling and intuition. She is also very expressive in what she wears, and very much a perfectionist. She is not totally a traditionalist- she hangs out with divorcees and other questionable people. She is not assertive or dominant in any way- which is more of an ESFP calling card. I think she is an idealist, because more and more when she is confronted with people and the way they behave she becomes very depressed and disillusioned. And she is such a J! Everything about her has to be controlled- she is very strict with the kids, she morally judges her husband, her father and her friends. She also has good advice and is a confidant. She is willing to take risks that she believes in, which is another reason I think she is intuitive. If she was a P, chances are she wouldn't be so well groomed, and she might be fine with more questionable behavior- because P's don't judge!


I would like to go over all the other types on that show, but first a recommendation, please when you guess what types they are, write down the reasons, and then you will truly get the answer.

Sorry I should have included my reasoning. I hate to say I disagree with much od what you've said.

First of all, ENTJs don't have extraverted intuition. I also don't see Don drawing energy from extraverted interaction ever in the show. I see him frequently using what I see as Ni. Examples would be when he writes the letter "Why I'm quitting tobacco" or when he comes up with pretty much all of his ideas for ads. He also seems to have a strong personal moral code. He goes to tell Joan not to do the prostitution thing (I read that as Fi) He is also prone to shame when it comes to his true identity as he sees his imposterdom as "wrong." ISFP I guessed because I think he definitely has Fi and Ni, but I could also see INTJ (same functions but different order) I definitely don't see him as an extravert though. He hates being flattered or the center of attention and often gives a modest nod when bragged about. He gets mad at Megan for throwing him a birthday party and doing her dance for him (She's clearly an extravert and loves people looking at her.) I guess I could agree with INTJ but certainly not ENTJ. I don't think ISFPs are all super-sensitive stereotypical artsy types you seem to be making them out to be. I've heard Don say "I don't feel anything" before too, but he definitely does have feelings. He will one second be hugging the "true" Mrs. Draper in tears because she's dying and the next second lying to Betty and telling her nothing is on his mind. His feelings sometimes manifest themselves in a sort of hidden manner. Remember the Clearasil account when he is asking "What do women want?" Betty had just had her car accident and was supposed to see a shrink and he was trying to come to terms with what he could do to make her happy. He was shocked that she wasn't happy already. His feelings affect him internally and then they manifest themselves externally in a hidden way. I am actually now thinking ISFP was a poor choice for him. I think INTJ fits better. I was mostly thinking he definitely has Fi and Ni, and draws energy from processing and creating in private.

Peggy is definitely a visionary and I think that if you don't get that from her you might be missing the point of the show (sorry to be so offensive.) The show is written by a bunch of 20 something year old female history majors and deals largely with Peggy's socially unconventional role as a copywriter. She recently moved in with her boyfriend before marriage (super unconventional at the time) and even says to the pastor at one point "I don't believe in a God who would do that." (in reference to sending people to hell for not repenting. The episode during the cuban missile crisis) She has Ni moments as does Don where she comes up with ideas for ads. I certainly think she is Ni dom, though I could see maaayyybe INFJ from her. Though I think Don and her mentor/mentee relationship would make a lot of sense if they were both INTJs and they both loved advertising.

Betty Draper... I can't see how you get INFJ from her. First of all she is super conventional. She is indeed very much of a feeler and seems prone to emotional outbursts "Like a little girl." But much of the development of her character revolves around her desperate loneliness. She even gives a lock of her hair to that kid. She is very expressive in what she wears, but that is a typical ESFP trait. Okay, I agree that she is possibly a J type. But I just really don't see Ni from her. I also strongly believe she is extraverted. She is easily flattered and thrives on attention. Remember the episode where Roger hits on her and she giggles and eats up the attention? Remember how excited she was to go with Don to that party to accept his award? Remember how desperate for attention she was that she gave the kid a lock of her hair? In fact Ps do have judgment abilities, but they are introverted judgment functions. FPs use primarily Fi and TPs use primarily Ti. Fi checks everything to see if it is "good or bad" and Ti checks everything to see if it's "True or False." I'm sure you know all this already, but I see Betty's judgments as Fi type judgments where she decides for herself whether something is good or bad (as opposed to Fe decision based on Ni or Si and asserted upon the world.) Extraverted judgments are asserted upon the world (Te in the form of rules and organizations, Fe in the form of social praise or scorn etc.) Ps judge! They don't assert their judgments as often.

I could maybe see ESFJ from Betty, but I really think ESFP fits her better. I just don't see any particularly active amount of Si or Ni from her.

When has she taken a risk for something she believed in? (in an intuitive way rather than an emotional outburst like slapping that lady in the supermarket)
When she acts as a confidant she usually seems to me be more interested in the opportunity to grow closer to someone than to offer advice or share insight.
 
Wow, excellent response!

You definitely brought up really good points, and made this post much more interesting.

Sorry if I seemed to go on and on about it. I got really into the show, but stopped watching after the second season- so shamefully I will admit that I am not fully up-to-date with Peggy's new shenanigans.
 
It's interesting how different people type differently- and what actions they use to type people.

I would argue on Betty's part though, that if she was more extroverted she would have more friends, I think she doesn't like getting close to people and letting them inside, and that's why she typically only has one or two close friends. Also, she did appear to have outbursts and anxiety after being in group situations. I think she is lonely though, and that's why she responded to the compliments by Roger. I think she's an introvert who doesn't realize she's an introvert, and hasn't figured out how to gain energy yet from being alone. I think she's an idealist, and gets disappointed with the reality of the world. She wants an ideal close relationship with just one person.

If you compare Jean with Betty- there is a huge difference. Jean is definitely an extrovert- she constantly surrounds herself with people, dresses more colorfully, is comfortable having multiple relationships. Betty on the other hand- loves, but very intensely so, she is very much in her own world. She gets intuitions though- like she did about Don's affairs, and there wasn't "concrete" evidence, but she had an intuition- same with that guy at the horse stall- she had an intuition that he was a sleazeball, so she set up a date with him and that other lady, just to prove that her intuition was correct. I don't think Betty is used to attention, compared with Jean who gets flattered all the time (because she is exposed to more people) Betty doesn't know how to respond. She might be an ISFJ- I'll compromise, but she is not an E by any means. And my mind she is still definitely a J, because of her morality, and her judging.

I still really recommend watching that DaveSuperPowers guy- I'd really love to talk about his videos with you. And what you think of how he describes the functions. He does make a good point that a lot of people read about the functions but then don't have an application, and that can affect how we type as well. It's a really good resource.

Btw- no offense taken whatsoever, I enjoy good and healthy debate, that's part of the reason I'm on here. As long as you are keen to debate, so am I. :) I am at work though right now, so I won't go into Don and Peggy at the moment though- perhaps later today.