How does your Ni (introverted intuition) work?
- Thread starter Baccal
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You know, I like to look at things from an extroverted, introverted point of view. I think many people over complicate the functions somewhat. If you think of it this way, I think it is easier because you can understand what the function means in general, then add your understanding of introversion or extroversion to the mix. Rather than seeing Ne and Ni as different or Fe and Fi as different you can see them as versions of the same thing.
Intuition is perceiving information with your minds eye, or from your subconscious/unconscious.
Extroversion tends to quickly jump topics, first in, last out.
Introversion tends to focus on one thing and explore that.
Now, of course, introverts have to get info from the outer world, but a lot of that info is processed internally a lot. So you have a few different heavily processed things as opposed to a bunch of different lightly processed things.
It's breadth over depth, and depth over breadth.
On a more subjective level, this is why I prefer introversion. I think exploring these things in depth leads to less mistakes, although it may be a slower more deliberate process than it's extroverted counterparts. That said I think it leads to more consistency and this is so important in my opinion. Extroverted people tend to be more extreme.
I have heard Ne described as outside the box and Ni as described as about the box.
Ne is constantly looking for new connections and Ni is examining the current situation for new connections or possibilities.
That said, I think N dominants do both, so it can be hard to pick it out when you do it. Also, I notice that being Ne I tend to be so absorbed in figuring out the next connection I can forget what I was thinking about. I think Ni (or really introversion in general) tends to put the current situation in perspective based on whatever was thought about, or the area of focus.
I hope that makes sense, N is difficult to describe.
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If it's difficult to describe abstractly, then how about some examples, or a metaphor?
I have been unable to accurately convey my understanding of this function through language.
According to one site, the difference between extroverted and introverted can be summed up as a heuristic. They both search for patterns; they just do it differently.
Other sites seem to half-ass defining it.
It is difficult to explain something so abstract and complex as Ni even to the INFJ. In many descriptions for the INFJ, it says that the INFJ are extremely intuitive individuals however this is so complex that even themselves can't figure out how they arrived at the conclusion..now if it's hard for the INFJ to describe their main function, I can imagine why people have such ahrd times figuring us out which might be why some of us are quite isolated from people.
From what I understand of it, it is related to my drive to extract core principles from any given application. I try to distill information to its essence or foundation and find principles that can be extracted and reapplied in a variety of contexts.
Because it focuses on principles instead of concrete applications, it can be rather abstract by nature. Extracting core concepts requires analyzing a pattern from every possible angle until you can see the way it always aligns under any context. When I think I have done this, but am later proven wrong it can be a bit shattering because it isn't about being wrong in one detail, but about unraveling an entire framework for understanding the world.
Because it focuses on principles instead of concrete applications, it can be rather abstract by nature. Extracting core concepts requires analyzing a pattern from every possible angle until you can see the way it always aligns under any context. When I think I have done this, but am later proven wrong it can be a bit shattering because it isn't about being wrong in one detail, but about unraveling an entire framework for understanding the world.
No, your explanation makes sense to me. Here is one example of one of the ways my Ni works. I tend to obsess on a problem or subject once I am engaged in it. This can often be quite frustrating. I became aware that I was often unconciously working on these things at night while I slept. Not necessarily dreaming about them, but continuing to process with the unconcious mind. I found I could even have a bit of control. If I set a problem in my mind, and told myself to work on it at night, I would often have the answer "pop" into my head the next day.
Yeah, I have done this before, or while laying down to sleep then BAM I figured out something I was working on. I never thought about it quite the way you put it though, I should certainly try and program my brain to do this more, good observation/insight.
Absolutely. Ni is the most subconscious of all the functions. Unfortunately, that makes Ni the hardest to explain and define. The best way I can describe it is that it is subconscious pattern recognition that is focused on imploding all information to a single truth.
Hmm, I know it deals with the subconscious but I don't think you can say it is more subconscious than other introverted functions like Fi for example. Perhaps it is the most subconscious of the perception functions.
"Is it possible to use it but just not be aware you are using it?"
Really, it is possible to use ANY function and not be aware of it.
I really think it is better to look at it as Intuition that is Introverted, not Introverted Intuition. (In that, the Intuition itself is the important part, and Introversion or Extroversion just describes in more detail how it works.)
To see Ne and Ni as two completely different things I think makes it tougher to understand.
Lol, I hope you are joking. How can we say anything is a fact with the brain? The idea of facts and subconscious processes mixing together is kind of contradictory don't you think?
You made the statement, prove it (not with links).
I think a good comparison here is Fi, because feelings are not words anyway, they come from our unconscious. Introverted feelings is the processing of these unconscious feelings, they can come in the form of images or feelings, just like Introverted Intuition.
Besides, as NFs how are we really supposed to distinguish when we are using Ni, Ne, Fi, Fe? They are all strong for us, how can you be so sure?
I think we should be very careful when making absolute statements about the functions or about the human unconscious. We don't want to mislead ourselves or our fellow board members.
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A good word to describe Ni is "integration" or in math "induction". It helps to see underlying principles, hidden patterns. INFJs are famous for seeing things really deep 
Ni is also supposedly responsible for gut feelings and divinations.
Vicky Joe on her site gave the following analogy: Ne is like a lifting aircraft - it fills the mind with possibilities, gets things moving. Ni is like landing the aircraft - it's focused on successfully getting results, accordance to a plan, seeing any potential dangers.
If you're an INFJ you have probably noticed that you become more active towards the end of group activities (a field trip for example).
Ni is also supposedly responsible for gut feelings and divinations.Vicky Joe on her site gave the following analogy: Ne is like a lifting aircraft - it fills the mind with possibilities, gets things moving. Ni is like landing the aircraft - it's focused on successfully getting results, accordance to a plan, seeing any potential dangers.
If you're an INFJ you have probably noticed that you become more active towards the end of group activities (a field trip for example).
Yeah that is a great post on how to properly utilize Ni, or perhaps an Introverted function as well. The funny thing is, I notice this same aspect with Ne, I think what they said applies to both, what a great insight.
"A good word to describe Ni is "integration" or in math "induction". It helps to see underlying principles, hidden patterns. INFJs are famous for seeing things really deep
Ni is also supposedly responsible for gut feelings and divinations.Vicky Joe on her site gave the following analogy: Ne is like a lifting aircraft - it fills the mind with possibilities, gets things moving. Ni is like landing the aircraft - it's focused on successfully getting results, accordance to a plan, seeing any potential dangers.
If you're an INFJ you have probably noticed that you become more active towards the end of group activities (a field trip for example)."
Also very interesting, I really just don't know. I find myself bouncing between the extremes. Sometimes I take awhile to get going, and other times I am motivated immediately and wear out. Do you think the extroverted functions are more likely to show this extreme behavior?
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The fact that Fi dominant people are prone to have very conscious knee jerk reactions and an insistence that no one can say 'this or that' is very clear proof that Fi is not especially subconscious. It is simply emotional and egocentric. It is very conscious as it is based on current and definable emotions.
In order from least to most subconscious, the introverted functions:
Si is conscious memory and association with left brained defining principles.
Ti is conscious logic and reasoning with right brained abstraction.
Fi is conscious emotion with subconscious emotional association.
Ni is subconscious perception with subconscious pattern recognition.
The problem you seem to be having is that you're assuming introverted functions are inherently subconscious. They're not.
Wrong. Feelings come from emotions, not the unconscious nor the subconscious. The ability to verbalize or not verbalize a cognition is only proof of right or left hemisphere dominance, not subconconscious operation. Fi is strongly rooted in the right side of the brain consciously, while associated with subconscious reference to memory.
Simple. Each function is distinct and they're rarely all strong in any of us. If that seems to be the case, it is much more likely that self assessment has been inaccurate due to the influence of two of the four of those functions compensating for the others and working in tandem to create pseudo or 'shadow' functions. In fact, the distinctions between the dominance of each of these is the exact definition of the various NF types.
Ni = INFJ
Ne = ENFP
Fi = INFP
Fe = ENFJ
I think we should be very careful when making absolute statements about things being undefinable, which does mislead people, contributes to confusion, and does nothing to resolve the matters at hand.
Knee Jerk reactions like the one you just made are more a function of Fe than Fi.
Your points seem to contradict themselves. How can an introverted function lead to a knee jerk response?
"In order from least to most subconscious, the introverted functions:
Si is conscious memory and association with left brained defining principles.
Ti is conscious logic and reasoning with right brained abstraction.
Fi is conscious emotion with subconscious emotional association.
Ni is subconscious perception with subconscious pattern recognition."
Fi is conscious emotion, why? I don't see it that way.
"Wrong. Feelings come from emotions, not the unconscious nor the subconscious. The ability to verbalize or not verbalize a cognition is only proof of right or left hemisphere dominance, not subconconscious operation. Fi is strongly rooted in the right side of the brain consciously, while associated with subconscious reference to memory."
And these emotions can come from the subconscious brain. Just because you don't do it that way, doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
Again this sounds good (as far as trying to discredit what I am saying) yet I have never said we shouldn't talk about things.
Oh I forgot this one:
"Simple. Each function is distinct and they're rarely all strong in any of us. If that seems to be the case, it is much more likely that self assessment has been inaccurate due to the influence of two of the four of those functions compensating for the others and working in tandem to create pseudo or 'shadow' functions. In fact, the distinctions between the dominance of each of these is the exact definition of the various NF types.
Ni = INFJ
Ne = ENFP
Fi = INFP
Fe = ENFJ"
Wow, you really are not giving me much benefit of the doubt here, I am well aware of the function order, what I was saying is that how can you be sure that what you are thinking at any given time is the function you think it is? How can you split up your brain and say "Ok, now I am definitely using Fi, or Fe, or Ni, or Ne with any sort of certainty. How do you know you aren't mixing it up when you try and define them here? If you haven't acknowledged this possibility perhaps you are not using your Ni effectively...or is it Ne?
Also if you look at other systems based on Jungs works you will find a different analysis. For example in Socionics INFJ is
Introverted Feeling
Extroverted Intuition
While INFP is
Introverted Intution
Extroverted Feeling
Are you saying Socionics is just wrong? It seems like you are unwilling to accept any analysis other than your own, which is a shame because it is going to be very hard for us to communicate like that.
"I think we should be very careful when making absolute statements about things being undefinable, which does mislead people, contributes to confusion, and does nothing to resolve the matters at hand."
Very original, straight up genius...wait I have heard that somewhere before
It was a nice way of saying you are being too arrogant and black and white in your statements, and that you need to be more open minded about things. I never said "This is the way it is: FACT" like you claimed. Demanding something is true does not make it such.
There is a clear contradiction in attempting to define the undefinable. You are calling gray things black and white, and this just isn't right.
It isn't what you are saying, it is how you are saying it.
"This is clearly this, and that is clearly that, so you are wrong". This is ridiculous. You have a certain view of the world and you seem unwilling to accept that it could be wrong, I am not claiming to be right, I am just stating that what you are saying is too black and white.
The idea isn't to not define something, it is to open up your mind to what the definition could be.
Nice try though, you almost had me.
BTW, any chance you are ENFJ?
Your points seem to contradict themselves. How can an introverted function lead to a knee jerk response?
"In order from least to most subconscious, the introverted functions:
Si is conscious memory and association with left brained defining principles.
Ti is conscious logic and reasoning with right brained abstraction.
Fi is conscious emotion with subconscious emotional association.
Ni is subconscious perception with subconscious pattern recognition."
Fi is conscious emotion, why? I don't see it that way.
"Wrong. Feelings come from emotions, not the unconscious nor the subconscious. The ability to verbalize or not verbalize a cognition is only proof of right or left hemisphere dominance, not subconconscious operation. Fi is strongly rooted in the right side of the brain consciously, while associated with subconscious reference to memory."
And these emotions can come from the subconscious brain. Just because you don't do it that way, doesn't mean someone else doesn't.
Again this sounds good (as far as trying to discredit what I am saying) yet I have never said we shouldn't talk about things.
Oh I forgot this one:
"Simple. Each function is distinct and they're rarely all strong in any of us. If that seems to be the case, it is much more likely that self assessment has been inaccurate due to the influence of two of the four of those functions compensating for the others and working in tandem to create pseudo or 'shadow' functions. In fact, the distinctions between the dominance of each of these is the exact definition of the various NF types.
Ni = INFJ
Ne = ENFP
Fi = INFP
Fe = ENFJ"
Wow, you really are not giving me much benefit of the doubt here, I am well aware of the function order, what I was saying is that how can you be sure that what you are thinking at any given time is the function you think it is? How can you split up your brain and say "Ok, now I am definitely using Fi, or Fe, or Ni, or Ne with any sort of certainty. How do you know you aren't mixing it up when you try and define them here? If you haven't acknowledged this possibility perhaps you are not using your Ni effectively...or is it Ne?
Also if you look at other systems based on Jungs works you will find a different analysis. For example in Socionics INFJ is
Introverted Feeling
Extroverted Intuition
While INFP is
Introverted Intution
Extroverted Feeling
Are you saying Socionics is just wrong? It seems like you are unwilling to accept any analysis other than your own, which is a shame because it is going to be very hard for us to communicate like that.
"I think we should be very careful when making absolute statements about things being undefinable, which does mislead people, contributes to confusion, and does nothing to resolve the matters at hand."
Very original, straight up genius...wait I have heard that somewhere before
It was a nice way of saying you are being too arrogant and black and white in your statements, and that you need to be more open minded about things. I never said "This is the way it is: FACT" like you claimed. Demanding something is true does not make it such.
There is a clear contradiction in attempting to define the undefinable. You are calling gray things black and white, and this just isn't right.
It isn't what you are saying, it is how you are saying it.
"This is clearly this, and that is clearly that, so you are wrong". This is ridiculous. You have a certain view of the world and you seem unwilling to accept that it could be wrong, I am not claiming to be right, I am just stating that what you are saying is too black and white.
The idea isn't to not define something, it is to open up your mind to what the definition could be.
Nice try though, you almost had me.
BTW, any chance you are ENFJ?
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Very simply. It starts with internal thought process then radiates outward (introverted), following a course set by emotion (Feeling).
Actually it does, because no one does it that way. That's not how Fi works. Your opinion doesn't change the fabric of reality or science.
Nor have I. I'm not trying to discredit you personally. I'm proving your points wrong, and trying to help you understand how these theories and principles work. Clearly you have interest in them, or else you would not have opinions.
No, I'm calling black and white things black and white. When these things are static and isolated, they are very clearly polarized. In a dynamic environment in which they interact, they appear to be gray because they blend.
I've heard this statement from Fi dominant people before. I apologize if my manner of presentation is offensive to you. It is not meant to be. I'm simply trying to concisely correct and educate you on something you appear to have interest in.
What I am saying is correct. There is always room for innovation and adaptation in the scientific process. However, opinion and conjecture cannot undo progress nor alter reality, only perception and perspective.
I wasn't trying to have you, just correct and refine what you added to this thread, to avoid confusion for the other forum members on the subject of Ni, which is the subject of this thread.