How does that relate to the mis-types you were earlier discussing? Say an INTJ is over-relying on Ni and Fi. You said this will also cause them to mis-type themselves; how?
Dominant/Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders
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How does that relate to the mis-types you were earlier discussing? Say an INTJ is over-relying on Ni and Fi. You said this will also cause them to mis-type themselves; how?
Great Post. This definitely explains why I thought I was an NT for so long. I had a pretty poor Fe until recently because of my Asperger's and the social problems that come from it. it wasn't until I got to college and started being around people more accepting of odd, eccentric types that I started being able to exercise my Fe.
Awesome, thank you for sharing!
Helps to illustrate why, many years ago, I used to think I was a NT. My family was pretty repressive of their emotions so I was very scared of my Fe. It has only been in the last 8 years or so that I've been learning to accept my F though I get caught up in Ni/Ti loops more often than I'd like, usually when a relationship is going bad. I'm working on it though!
I, too, am curious about when/if any of the other traits become suppressed what happens?
Helps to illustrate why, many years ago, I used to think I was a NT. My family was pretty repressive of their emotions so I was very scared of my Fe. It has only been in the last 8 years or so that I've been learning to accept my F though I get caught up in Ni/Ti loops more often than I'd like, usually when a relationship is going bad. I'm working on it though!
I, too, am curious about when/if any of the other traits become suppressed what happens?
I'm trying to understand this statement better. Can anyone provide some concrete examples?
I found part two of this video to be interesting (solitary activities): http://www.videojug.com/interview/schizoid-personality-disorder
Does that include spending all day surfing the Internet (eek!)?
Now for the next question... do you care that you're schizoid?
Great thing about that personality disorder is that you generally don't
I don't think that my Ti is shot down by my Ni, no.. they tend to reinforce each other. Ti, logically frames what Ni knows. I gain external input from Se, not Fe. I think at one point in my life the Ni and Ti were in conflict, but now they're in harmony... yet I don't use Fe to do it.
In that period where Ni and Ti where in conflict, I think Ti was being shot down by Ni, or maybe the other way around. What I knew was questioned by Ti and ultimately, Ni lost. Ni rebuilt itself in a new way to align with Ti. Fe sort of exists as an emotional motivation for me that used to be buried in my subconscious, but my last relationship awakened it. I now am conscious of it, but I stopped using it because it's mostly a garbage function. Se is better.
Anyone able to take a stab at this? I always test as INFJ, Enneagram 1w9, but.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001919/...
My gosh, lynchman, I have a friend who thinks people are out to get her when there is no evidence to prove her suspicions. She has insisted people were looking at her funny and talking badly about her during a home Bible study we attended (No, not Jehovah's Witnesses- the "students" come to the teacher's house and we all share a meal). She even told me to stop making fun of her when I heard her yelling on her cell phone and told her to calm down. I think it is undeveloped Ti. What gives?
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There are 3 good reasons that this article should be de-stickied:
1) It's an advert.
2) It's presented as fact when it is a dialogue which requires discussion and thorough refinement.
3) It's misleading and often blatantly incorrect.
For example the titles and the 'logical descriptions' do not line up with experience of the behaviour of types nor indeed the theory behind what the functions are; it also automatically assumes an axiom flip where the functions are used in a 'rejection/acceptance only way'. That's silly, they are used over-confidently in both methods hence the reliance! This is due to the motives of the author which was to fit niche cases into the individual boxes he had in his head (the answer drove the analysis) and it ruins the whole idea of validity, that being to provide a link between 'pure theory' and observed behaviour.
ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder
This is not what appears in observation by other types.
Cognitively this is a position at which the mind is focused on a 'logic/universal idea purity'. There is a play off in the individual seeking a logically pure position often by overusing occams razor to assume all of the variables must be 'set somewhere' that can be seen to eliminate ambiguity.
This often leads more to a conspiracy theorist response rather than a schizoid one. INFJs are not socially avoidant in this mode, in fact they seek out interaction to discuss these theories!
ISFP/INTJ: Fi/Ni or Ni/Fi--Paranoid Personality Disorder
This is an 'ethical/universal ideal purity' reliance and that is not a paranoid disorder, it's very parochial but that's not paranoid and it's certainly not a conspiracy theorist position. Close minded yes, paranoid no. Paranoia is defined as a reliance of superiority or fear, this is actually a false believe in the superiority of a position and therefore overconfidence. Nonsense in psychological terms.
This is most often the perceived behaviour of ISFPs/INTJs who often see them as meglomaniacal purists. They are most certainly not paranoid around people who share their vision/ideas/ethics because it is the 'best possible position'.
Since the whole dialogue is a bit behind best practice I recommend that it is not stickied because it is presented as 'fact'; It should only be restored to sticky once amended to display a suitable quantity of warning and disclaimer labels and backed up with an appropriate change of tone or in the alternative suitable references and an improvement in logic to support the proposed theory.
1) It's an advert.
2) It's presented as fact when it is a dialogue which requires discussion and thorough refinement.
3) It's misleading and often blatantly incorrect.
For example the titles and the 'logical descriptions' do not line up with experience of the behaviour of types nor indeed the theory behind what the functions are; it also automatically assumes an axiom flip where the functions are used in a 'rejection/acceptance only way'. That's silly, they are used over-confidently in both methods hence the reliance! This is due to the motives of the author which was to fit niche cases into the individual boxes he had in his head (the answer drove the analysis) and it ruins the whole idea of validity, that being to provide a link between 'pure theory' and observed behaviour.
ISTP/INFJ: Ti/Ni or Ni/Ti--Schizoid Personality Disorder
This is not what appears in observation by other types.
Cognitively this is a position at which the mind is focused on a 'logic/universal idea purity'. There is a play off in the individual seeking a logically pure position often by overusing occams razor to assume all of the variables must be 'set somewhere' that can be seen to eliminate ambiguity.
This often leads more to a conspiracy theorist response rather than a schizoid one. INFJs are not socially avoidant in this mode, in fact they seek out interaction to discuss these theories!
ISFP/INTJ: Fi/Ni or Ni/Fi--Paranoid Personality Disorder
This is an 'ethical/universal ideal purity' reliance and that is not a paranoid disorder, it's very parochial but that's not paranoid and it's certainly not a conspiracy theorist position. Close minded yes, paranoid no. Paranoia is defined as a reliance of superiority or fear, this is actually a false believe in the superiority of a position and therefore overconfidence. Nonsense in psychological terms.
This is most often the perceived behaviour of ISFPs/INTJs who often see them as meglomaniacal purists. They are most certainly not paranoid around people who share their vision/ideas/ethics because it is the 'best possible position'.
Since the whole dialogue is a bit behind best practice I recommend that it is not stickied because it is presented as 'fact'; It should only be restored to sticky once amended to display a suitable quantity of warning and disclaimer labels and backed up with an appropriate change of tone or in the alternative suitable references and an improvement in logic to support the proposed theory.
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I think it is nutso to relate MBTI to actual mental problems. MBTI is a personality theory--period. I think it demeans clinical evaluation of recognized mental issues to say they are related/associated to MBTI. MBTI is still at it's heart, a self analysis tool and heavily reliant upon self reporting. Being evaulated and diagnosed with a mental disorder is not based on self-analysis. I tend to error on the side of caution and think IJ has a valid point.
Reading about schizoid personality disorder just makes me think that it is an attack on introversion.
I have been accused of many of the things below by people who claim to know what goes through my head and I'm getting fed up with it. ESFJs, ENFJs, ESTJs and ENTJs seem to have the greatest tendency to do this in my experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
DSM
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines schizoid personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster A) as:[SUP][31][/SUP]
A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood (age eighteen or older) and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
I have been accused of many of the things below by people who claim to know what goes through my head and I'm getting fed up with it. ESFJs, ENFJs, ESTJs and ENTJs seem to have the greatest tendency to do this in my experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
DSM
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines schizoid personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster A) as:[SUP][31][/SUP]
A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood (age eighteen or older) and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
- Neither desires nor enjoys relationships or human interaction, including being part of a family
- Almost always chooses solitary activities
- Has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
- Takes pleasure in few, if any, activities with other people
- Lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
- Appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
- Shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affect
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I can definitely relate to the section on:
"ESFP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organizing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situation."
I've taken the MBTI test through a professional Career Counseling company through my work and test as an ENTJ but find that I relate more closely with INFJ with a very strong thinking function. There are elements of ENTJ that ring true to me, especially reading this bit here on Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. I've always thought I possessed characteristics of OCPD, which are especially evident during times of high stress or during big life transitions. Getting tested again in order to clarify the ENTJ/INFJ would be helpful...
"ESFP/ENTJ: Se/Te or Te/Se--Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not the same thing as OCD)! I've seen people mistake ESFPs in Se+Te dom-tert loops for ESTPs because they can be so insistent upon controlling their surroundings. These types epitomize enneagram type 8, as they are aggressive, blunt, confrontational and not the least bit afraid of hurting anyone's feelings. Inside they require the approval of others to a much higher degree than they let on, as Te insists on controlling and organizing external surroundings to ridiculous proportions, while Se pushes any naysayers out of the way with aggressive force and a take-no-prisoners attitude. Territorial and looking for any reason to display their power, these types are some of the most difficult to deal with of all dom-tert loops. If Fi/Ni were doing its job, these types would stop to consider that their actions have negative implications for others, and that aggressively taking charge is not always the best solution in every situation."
I've taken the MBTI test through a professional Career Counseling company through my work and test as an ENTJ but find that I relate more closely with INFJ with a very strong thinking function. There are elements of ENTJ that ring true to me, especially reading this bit here on Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. I've always thought I possessed characteristics of OCPD, which are especially evident during times of high stress or during big life transitions. Getting tested again in order to clarify the ENTJ/INFJ would be helpful...
I would agree with Invisible Jim, not to take this stuff too seriously, and to take it worth grain of salt, but I also think that there are a lot of ideas that are worth exploring too.
I've seen this potentiality among many types- the histrionic with ENFJ, the dominant/aggressive sexuality of ENTPs, the border-line in ENFPs, the painful paranoia of the INTJ, and definitely the removed/uncaring INFJ. With all personalities there are strengths and weaknesses, and in its most extreme form it can show as mental illness.
For me personally, until I developed my Ti, I relied too much on Fe and Ni, and because my Fe was unbalanced by a strong Ti, it was scary how out of control I felt in my own life. I was controlled by symbols/astrology/dreams and didn't feel that I could break out of that cycle. There came a point that my Ni and my Fe literally had to be shut down for me to finally develop my Ti and Se.
Now that I have really worked (very very hard) to use my Ti, I am not afraid of the symbols I am confronted with in my every day life. I was able to grow past that- and this may sound weird, but I think that because my Ni was feeding off of so much out of control Fe- it was almost as though I was more of an ISFJ- because my Ni unmeted by Ti was more like an overwhelming Se.
I also agree with what other people have posted- that a lot of people are afraid to look at the fact that they might have "sensing" characteristics- which is foolish and silly. All of us have "sensing" characteristics in one form or another, it just depends on whether its a main form of information gathering, or a lesser form. Too much Ni is just as bad as not enough Ni. When intuition is unmet by our other functions we are in serious trouble- that's why its so important to develop our all of our functions to the best of our abilities.
I developed Fe more as a defense mechanism to deal with my mother, and often looked upon it more as a curse than a blessing, but now that I have developed my Ti, I can appreciate it for what it is. I think a lot of people might over-identify with other Myers Briggs types simply because they have not developed their own tertiary functions. I do think that it could also be the opposite though- that people who have developed all of the functions might be harder to type, because perhaps they have a strong feeling/thinking side. The real question is how we relate to others- primarily through expression of feeling or ideas and thoughts. Although I have developed my T, in conversation, I am more likely to convey feelings rather than thoughts- thats why I am an Fe, and Ti- I will admit I sometimes get annoyed when people switch types frequently- because in my opinion it should be obvious whether they are Fe or Fi, or Te or Ti.
Dave Super Powers on youtube has really great videos about these different functions- I suggest people who are unsure watch his videos.
I've seen this potentiality among many types- the histrionic with ENFJ, the dominant/aggressive sexuality of ENTPs, the border-line in ENFPs, the painful paranoia of the INTJ, and definitely the removed/uncaring INFJ. With all personalities there are strengths and weaknesses, and in its most extreme form it can show as mental illness.
For me personally, until I developed my Ti, I relied too much on Fe and Ni, and because my Fe was unbalanced by a strong Ti, it was scary how out of control I felt in my own life. I was controlled by symbols/astrology/dreams and didn't feel that I could break out of that cycle. There came a point that my Ni and my Fe literally had to be shut down for me to finally develop my Ti and Se.
Now that I have really worked (very very hard) to use my Ti, I am not afraid of the symbols I am confronted with in my every day life. I was able to grow past that- and this may sound weird, but I think that because my Ni was feeding off of so much out of control Fe- it was almost as though I was more of an ISFJ- because my Ni unmeted by Ti was more like an overwhelming Se.
I also agree with what other people have posted- that a lot of people are afraid to look at the fact that they might have "sensing" characteristics- which is foolish and silly. All of us have "sensing" characteristics in one form or another, it just depends on whether its a main form of information gathering, or a lesser form. Too much Ni is just as bad as not enough Ni. When intuition is unmet by our other functions we are in serious trouble- that's why its so important to develop our all of our functions to the best of our abilities.
I developed Fe more as a defense mechanism to deal with my mother, and often looked upon it more as a curse than a blessing, but now that I have developed my Ti, I can appreciate it for what it is. I think a lot of people might over-identify with other Myers Briggs types simply because they have not developed their own tertiary functions. I do think that it could also be the opposite though- that people who have developed all of the functions might be harder to type, because perhaps they have a strong feeling/thinking side. The real question is how we relate to others- primarily through expression of feeling or ideas and thoughts. Although I have developed my T, in conversation, I am more likely to convey feelings rather than thoughts- thats why I am an Fe, and Ti- I will admit I sometimes get annoyed when people switch types frequently- because in my opinion it should be obvious whether they are Fe or Fi, or Te or Ti.
Dave Super Powers on youtube has really great videos about these different functions- I suggest people who are unsure watch his videos.
I can easily relate to the whole nerdism that is Ti-Ni. It would seem that dominant-tertiary loops may manifest more easily on those who primarily favor introversion (for the introverted loops of Ti-Si, Ti-Ni, Fi-Si and Fi-Ni) or extroversion (for the extroverted loops of Te-Se, Te-Ne, Fe-Se, and Fe-Ne).
And in spotting a familiar trait, something in me goes, "Oh no." There's great value in investing in people, I know that. Recognizing the importance isn't the issue, the actual carrying out of connecting with them is. Maintaining relationships is my struggle. Sometimes I place it on the backburner because it, unfortunately, becomes of less (not no) significance. Blame tunnel vision. I get fixated on a goal, and everything else fades out of the picture. Does that count as the Ni/Ti loop? Or just a matter of keeping a balance?
Also, the point of outward appearance is?
