Good artists borrow, Great artists steal? | INFJ Forum

Good artists borrow, Great artists steal?

Asa

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There are many artists, writers, film makers and musicians on this forum, so I thought I'd start some posts about the arts. This one was inspired by a friend.

A friend recently found out her life was stolen by an author and made into a novel without her permission. The author quotes her verbatim in his work. The story he made into a novel is a deeply personal one that has been difficult for her to recover from.

This is horrifying to both of us. In my view, it is criminal. Yet, many artists and writers have said the exact words, "Good artists borrow, Great artists steal." after telling me they planned to steal my work, or an idea from an anecdote. They validate their unethical choices by claiming that because the quote is attributed to Picasso, one of the world's greatest artists, stealing intellectual property is OK.

I am a stickler for making sure my work has a copyright before letting others see it. Even if I know they are trustworthy, people surrounding them may not be. I also don't put my artwork online until I've shown it publicly, or until it is published. I collect evidence of the date my work appeared as well. If I find out a person is doing similar work, because that happens, I change mine.

----
The other day a filmmaker, my musician SO and I were having a conversation when my filmmaker friend suggested my SO get a certain person to be in his new band.
My SO and I shook our heads, "NO!"
Why?
"He has sticky fingers." I explained.
"Sticky fingers and loose morals," my SO continued.
The filmmaker's jaw dropped. He demanded that we give examples. (It was a serious accusation.) We told him about several incidences where the person stole intellectual property from both of us. After hearing the stories the filmmaker vowed never to work with said person again. To him, this is a serious crime, to others, it is just part of being an artist, writer or musician.

----
Is stealing intellectual property in an attempt to become "great" unethical to you? Or acceptable?
Why?

Do you think MBTI may influence our views?

Let's discuss ethics in the arts for INFJs and other MBTI.


And please, please, please, copyright your material before showing it to others, and be careful who you share with unless you would like to be the muse for a novel, film or painting.
<3 I don't want this to happen to you.

 
I don't know if MBTI influences our views on this, but I certainly agree with the fact that stealing intellectual property is unethical. It is one thing to get inspired by an other artist's work, but to steal ... that's low. Great artists innovate and use their own imagination. I can't imagine that people who do this actually feel proud of their stolen artwork, it should feel so much better to be praised for art that an artist creates themselves.

What happened to your friend is horrible by the way, isn't there any way to solve this legally? This can't be done without her permission.
 
@Asa personally ? I think that quote is a bit tongue in cheek. I think of it as meaning if you look carefully at anyone's work, you can usually see the things they have been influenced by. What was that Stephen Fry joke ? " I need an original idea, the library must be full of them". Personally I think it's ok to be influenced or inspired by things, but taking someone else's ideas or work, and claiming that they are your own ? It's theft. Pure and simple theft.

Great artists don't steal, they don't need to steal or borrow, they create. They are original and talented, so don't need to lean on, or steal from someone else's, ideas, talents or creations. If you are going to do anything remotely like that, I think you have to explicitly acknowledge the original creator. That said, I do think the law's around copyright etc really do need reform, especially where the use of materials etc is for educational purposes. I am straying from the point of your thread I think, but I can't help but think of the case of Aaron Swartz and how he was treated.

As regards the guy with the sticky fingers ? I'd regard him as a crook, he would never get past my front door, and I think you did the right thing to tell your film maker friend about his behavior. I'm sorry about what happened to your friend with the book, but unless she has been libeled in some way, I'm not sure what she can do about it. From what I gather even if you are, it's a very costly thing to try to pursue. I don't think some 'throwaway quote' from Picasso makes unethical behavior ok, that's total b.s. in my view. Ultimately it's proven by the fact that the 'thief' has to lie about what they've done, as if they acknowledged their theft, they would not be able to profit from it.
 
@koizora, I don't know, either, but some types are known for adhering to morals and ethics more than others, while other type will bend with those they are surrounded by. That said, what someone considers moral or immoral is still personal to some extent.

Great artists innovate and use their own imagination. I can't imagine that people who do this actually feel proud of their stolen artwork, it should feel so much better to be praised for art that an artist creates themselves.

I agree with you. It is dishonorable to steal another's work. I would not be proud of it. I would hate myself.
But it seems like some people want success so badly that they don't care how they get it. Some people believe ideas are like water or air. Some people don't know the difference between an homage, inspiration and stealing. :(
(^^^^^Edit: I realize this seems trite, but I was once in a legal argument over stolen intellectual property and the accused claimed a friend who was defending the original artist had also "stolen". This friend had done a comedic homage to a very famous band. It was obvious satire. Still, the thief either pretending to be dumb, or was actually dumb and continued to accuse my friend of stealing intellectual property too, under the blanket, "We all do it, even you!")

@James, agree! ! !
 
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@Asa personally ? I think that quote is a bit tongue in cheek. I think of it as meaning if you look carefully at anyone's work, you can usually see the things they have been influenced by. What was that Stephen Fry joke ? " I need an original idea, the library must be full of them". Personally I think it's ok to be influenced or inspired by things, but taking someone else's ideas or work, and claiming that they are your own ? It's theft. Pure and simple theft.

Great artists don't steal, they don't need to steal or borrow, they create. They are original and talented, so don't need to lean on, or steal from someone else's, ideas, talents or creations. If you are going to do anything remotely like that, I think you have to explicitly acknowledge the original creator. That said, I do think the law's around copyright etc really do need reform, especially where the use of materials etc is for educational purposes. I am straying from the point of your thread I think, but I can't help but think of the case of Aaron Swartz and how he was treated.

tumblr_inline_msm77yy6DX1qz4rgp.gif
 
Yes, @James has a way with words, right?
I think it is literally impossible not to be influenced or inspired by others. There have been so many centuries of humans.
But as James said, inspiration is not stealing. Using someone else's ideas as your own is theft.

I'm so sad for my friend. This story has been a major part of her life for a long time. I've seen how it has affected her, and now someone has stolen it and sells it as his own – as fiction. :(
 
Yes, @James has a way with words, right?
I think it is literally impossible not to be influenced or inspired by others. There have been so many centuries of humans.
But as James said, inspiration is not stealing. Using someone else's ideas as your own is theft.

I'm so sad for my friend. This story has been a major part of her life for a long time. I've seen how it has affected her, and now someone has stolen it and sells it as his own – as fiction. :(

@Asa thank you for your kind words. I am sorry about your friend I misunderstood, I thought it was details of her real life incorporated into a book. Whilst there is no scientific proof of any kind, I still believe Karma finds it's own way with such things, and that virtue is it's own reward.
 
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@Asa thank you for your kind words. I am sorry about your friend I misunderstood, I thought it was details of her real life incorporated into a book. Whilst there is no scientific proof of any kind, I still believe Karma finds it's own way with such things, and that virtue is it's own reward.

Oh, they are details of her real life. She also wrote them down in story form and shared, but it was autobiographical. This is so sad. In my opinion, she was violated.

@ruji -- yes, borrowing usually means "to return". :(
 
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Oh, they are details of her real life. She also wrote them down in story form and shared, but it was autobiographical. This is so sad. In my opinion, she was violated.

@ruji -- yes, borrowing usually means "to return". :(

In that case, I agree and I am truly sorry. All I can suggest is that she writes the story she intended to, and let the comparison do the rest. If she is honest and writes from the heart, I can guess her account will easily surpass the plagiarist.
 
There are many artists, writers, film makers and musicians on this forum, so I thought I'd start some posts about the arts. This one was inspired by a friend.

A friend recently found out her life was stolen by an author and made into a novel without her permission. The author quotes her verbatim in his work. The story he made into a novel is a deeply personal one that has been difficult for her to recover from.

This is horrifying to both of us. In my view, it is criminal. Yet, many artists and writers have said the exact words, "Good artists borrow, Great artists steal." after telling me they planned to steal my work, or an idea from an anecdote. They validate their unethical choices by claiming that because the quote is attributed to Picasso, one of the world's greatest artists, stealing intellectual property is OK.

I am a stickler for making sure my work has a copyright before letting others see it. Even if I know they are trustworthy, people surrounding them may not be. I also don't put my artwork online until I've shown it publicly, or until it is published. I collect evidence of the date my work appeared as well. If I find out a person is doing similar work, because that happens, I change mine.

----
The other day a filmmaker, my musician SO and I were having a conversation when my filmmaker friend suggested my SO get a certain person to be in his new band.
My SO and I shook our heads, "NO!"
Why?
"He has sticky fingers." I explained.
"Sticky fingers and loose morals," my SO continued.
The filmmaker's jaw dropped. He demanded that we give examples. (It was a serious accusation.) We told him about several incidences where the person stole intellectual property from both of us. After hearing the stories the filmmaker vowed never to work with said person again. To him, this is a serious crime, to others, it is just part of being an artist, writer or musician.

----
Is stealing intellectual property in an attempt to become "great" unethical to you? Or acceptable?
Why?

Do you think MBTI may influence our views?

Let's discuss ethics in the arts for INFJs and other MBTI.


And please, please, please, copyright your material before showing it to others, and be careful who you share with unless you would like to be the muse for a novel, film or painting.
<3 I don't want this to happen to you.

Is stealing intellectual property in an attempt to become "great" unethical to you? Or acceptable?
Very much unacceptable and unethical. However there is thievery everywhere. I see very little in terms of originality being sacred. Too much is a spin off this or that.

Why?
I wouldn't be able to sleep or look myself in the mirror. Stealing anything of any kind is just plain wrong. Ask...I'll most likely give it to ya.
I have a friend who steals coffee packets from his work breakroom...he thinks it's perfectly acceptable. Another friend steals condiments, napkins, and utensils from Wendy's...still another friend stole one of my sketch books to claim as her own...let's just say these folks have to pee with the door open when they come to my home. ;)

Do you think MBTI may influence our views? Yes...but then again so does upbringing.

Let's discuss ethics in the arts for INFJs and other MBTI.
 
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People are continually repeating something like "Einstein said that doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results is the definition of insanity."

Einstein wasn't a student of sanity. Whatever the fuck sanity is, it's pretty obvious that Einstein didn't have very well developed ideas about it.

Artists are many things, and Picasso wasn't all of them.

Like James said, great artists create. Good artists intertextualise. Poor artists steal.
 
Not much can be said, that hasn't already been so well said.

I do believe that every 'original' idea we have draws influence from some outside source, and yet it can be considered to be one's own idea, if it is gestated within oneself. I think it's simply untrue that anyone, within their own conscience, is unclear about the boundaries on this matter. Intuitively we know what belongs to someone else, and we know when we're taking what's not ours, and we know when due credit/referencing is due to someone else (and in academic writing this looks a littler different, and is more stringent than is necessary in other fields). Those who act coy on this matter, either choose not to care, are deceiving themselves, and/or are trying to fool others.

There's something particularly unethical about literally stealing the work of others and claiming it as your own. It's always been something with has detested me the most.

It's a shame there are such thieves out there. For it would be ideal to have a society where ideas are freely shared, without the need for certain strictures of copyright or the need for secrecy, because everyone would respect the owner and the source of their origin, and would learn and create new things from the said ideas shared, but without ever crossing the bounds of private ownership. Even though it's untenable in this world, I think it's worth keeping in mind such an ideal. For ultimately, ideas don't belong to us, nor do our works, and yet they are ours at the same time - but they are born to be shared in some way, shape or form; and it's important to share what we've been given. Unfortunately we have to guard ourselves against brigands, and have to play it safe many times, but now and then there are little openings in which we're called to share a little of what's inside, maybe even more than we're comfortable with, until eventually we've shared all that we have to give. Even if we have to weave through the red tapes, of copyrighting (which I see as a somewhat necessary evil), so long as we're sharing what is ours, but which ultimately belongs to all.

Somehow I think Socrates would hold to such sentiment. I imagine that he'd be more than willing to cut the red tape if it were going to serve as an obstacle to sharing his ideas. That he'd choose to share his ideas even at the cost of having them stolen - not out of a motive of confidence that he'd receive the acclaim and people would know what came from him, but out of a motive to pass on the wisdom of creativity and wealth hat he'd received - made his own for sure - but received nonetheless. With concern for recognition only secondary to this, and even eclipsed by it - not gone altogether, but in the background to this higher ideal.
 
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I agree, @invisible (including the part about whatever the fuck sanity is).
I haven't forgotten what happened to your work, either. :(

However, I do wonder why so many people, even people who seem compassionate and caring and are not total jerks, think it is OK for artists to steal. I'm happy that so many of us agree that is is wrong and the mark of a poor artist.
 
Although @James is likely correct about that statement being tongue-in-cheek and @ruji 's insightful interpretation almost redeems the statement in my eyes, to take it seriously, and somewhat play the game of semantics:

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal."

...to re-frame it...drawing from a statement by Michael Stipe in an interview with Terry Denton: "One only becomes a true artist when one forgets everything they've learnt":

Fake artists steal. Mediocre artists copy, without claiming it as their own. Good artists learn from others but make it their own. Great artists, almost forgetting what they've learnt, simply create.
 
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I agree, @invisible (including the part about whatever the fuck sanity is).
I haven't forgotten what happened to your work, either. :(

However, I do wonder why so many people, even people who seem compassionate and caring and are not total jerks, think it is OK for artists to steal. I'm happy that so many of us agree that is is wrong and the mark of a poor artist.

It's because they've never experienced the real thing.
 
I think seeking greatness leads to being unethical anyway. Even if you aren't stealing you'll be doing something else just for the attention.
 
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I think seeking greatness leads to being unethical anyway. Even if you aren't stealing you'll be doing something else just for the attention.

I get what you're saying, but this ALMOST sounds as though it's better to strive to create art that is mediocre. If you have any ideas that you think could be really good, try to forget about them!
 
I get what you're saying, but this ALMOST sounds as though it's better to strive to create art that is mediocre. If you have any ideas that you think could be really good, try to forget about them!

It's better to do the best you can without craving recognition. If being the greatest is what you want, you're likely to lie to yourself about how great you actually are.