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Thread: Ni Ti Loop827 days ago

  1. #1
    Community Member alice144's Avatar
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    Ni Ti Loop

    Yeah. I know that this is not a new thread, but I couldn't find any 'answers' in the other ones I googled.

    Questions:

    1) Have you ever experienced an Ni/Ti loop? Did you feel 'schizoid', as this article suggests? Or rather, did you better fit the symptomology of avpd?
    2) What's so bad about an Ni/Ti loop? Isn't logical consistency good?
    3) Is belcs right in that undeveloped Fe has less to do with a personality defect, and more to do with "working through your problems"?
    4) Why do infjs repress their Fe in the first place?



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  2. #2
    Similes are like songs in love Matt3737's Avatar
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    I'm a INFJ with a strongly developed tertiary, and I have no problems with my Ni/Ti loop. See my signature for confirmation. I don't read too deeply into the MBTI literature, so you may need to elaborate a bit more on what issues you might want me to discuss further.

    I looked at the article and my immediate concern was with the observer's ability/bias to type/mis-type with their diagnoses. It may simply be mistaken type rather than repressed auxiliary. Although, it could be the case that during periods of stress, this could occur, but such incidents would likely be hard to verify.

    In my case, people misconstrue my tertiary dominance due to contextual interaction, i.e. because we're on a forum discussing through a written medium, my tertiary function seems more dominant than my auxiliary because we're not interacting in person and I cannot express my emotions through the use of body language as easily.
    Logic is equivalent with pi in that it recurrently divides, discerns, and distinguishes irrationally, yet is useful by approximation.

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  3. #3
    Similes are like songs in love Matt3737's Avatar
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    @Radiant Shadow

    I hope you don't mind if I answer your rep question in this thread since it's a complicated answer that might also elaborate on the Ni/Ti loop topic.

    If I may probe, how did you build your Ti? There is a distinct balanced edge to it in healthy INFJs that I find admirable.
    I actively embrace my Ni/Ti loop.

    They live in their own abstract worlds, constantly second-guessing themselves as Ti poses a framework for a problem and Ni shoots it down as too definitionally precise. Without any real external input, these two functions will dream up all sorts of elaborate systems and implications for them, only to repeat their own self-defeating behavior, never bothering to emphasize putting any of its intense ideas into practice. Frequent disregard for rules, laws and other forms of behavioral standards is common, as no function provides any significant sense of external influence. If Se/Fe were doing its job, the user would recognize the value of connecting with others and of paying attention to their needs, preferences, habits and appearances.
    A glass half-filled can equally be said to be half-full or half-empty. Using the pi analogy, we can always better approximate pi, but we can never exactly represent pi. It is self-defeating, but by the same token it can also be self-fulfilling. That's the duality inherent in paradox.

    I'm a dialetheist. Dialetheism's common criticism and misunderstanding is its invocation of the priciple of explosion which states that acceptance of any contradiction leads to anything and everything being true, i.e. trivialism. This is true and it is self-defeating, but it paradoxically means that I may revoke that principle at my whim and use my sense of gravitas when I deem it appropriate. I can be contradictory or not depending on circumstance or context.

    Here is a good article about dialetheism.

    Attracted to symbolic actions or devices, Ni synthesizes seeming paradoxes to create the previously unimagined. These realizations come with a certainty that demands action to fulfill a new vision of the future, solutions that may include complex systems or universal truths.

    Ti seeks precision, such as the exact word to express an idea. Ti notices the minute distinctions that define the essence of things, then analyzes and classifies them. Ti examines all sides of an issue, looking to solve problems while minimizing effort and risk. It uses models to root out logical inconsistency.
    The principle of explosion is akin to one's imagination. It is unbounded and expansive; it opens up possibilities, but it also trivializes and idealizes too far and hence requires its anti-thesis, realism and gravitas, to bring it into equilibrium. Just as the stars and planets are held in hydrostatic equilibrium, logic is in a continual balance of opposing forces. It's Dao.

    So, in essence, we can never exactly represent pi in the same way we can never name the true Tao, but we can always better approximate it. Likewise in the joke about two people being chased by a bear, I only need to 'outrun' you or better approximate pi to get my points across or win my argument. I don't need to prove anything as I already know I cannot do so.

    This is also good reason to better understand why emotions are so important. They put the motive into any and all decisions, never logic. Logic will sort pros and cons and keep the balance, but emotion will choose and decide on the action. Emotion is the prime mover of all decision making and hence has gravitas. It is the 'why' of any question and the irrationality of determining pi.
    Logic is equivalent with pi in that it recurrently divides, discerns, and distinguishes irrationally, yet is useful by approximation.

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  4. #4
    Urban shaman Radiant Shadow's Avatar
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    Thank you, @Matt3737 ; that post reinforced my impression of both good and bad Ni-Ti loops, and was my evening enlightenment. I did not know there was a term for that system. The significance behind my user location -- "yin-yang feathers absorb the sky" -- is similar, if comparatively imprecise. Innately oppositional approaches, like Logos/Ethos or Yin/Yang, create holes in reality, paradoxes. These evolve into 'mu' (loosely meaning "negation") "folds" wherein anything can be considered, borderline Absurdism, but whose final validity must be pinpointed by situational intent and usefulness. Balance, essentially.

    @alice144 .

    Right, there's nothing inherently wrong with Ni-Ti loops. The healthy ones logically explore the paradoxes dreamt up by Ni and help Fe assess whether and how they are useful for humanity. When they "go bad", disregarding or unaware of the values and social dynamics created by Fe, redundancy problems arise because there are no external grounds for verification that what you're doing is beneficial or "the right thing to do", insomuch as we can know what the right thing is.

    "Schizoid" is the perfect word for what I felt like when going through a bad loop. Disconnected. Out-of-sync. Deadened and discolored. This primarily happened, as Matt briefly mentioned, as a result of great psychological stress compounded by severe lack of positive feedback from others. The bad reputation that some give to INFJ's as being mindlessly group-driven to satisfy their self-image (read: sheeple) may be a product of this, but that is only raw conjecture at best.

    Edit: It's 2:30 in the morning, if anything is unclear or does not follow, let me know.
    Last edited by Radiant Shadow; 15-06-12 at 06:16 PM.
    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds that you plant."

    Hope is an anytime wreath, hung as a noose for the naive and savored as a wine by the wise.





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  5. #5
    Community Member alice144's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt3737 View Post
    A glass half-filled can equally be said to be half-full or half-empty.
    Aren't you digressing a little...? I feel like this is an unnecessarily complicated response to a comparatively simple (set of) questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
    redundancy problems arise
    This is an interesting idea, but would you mind being a little bit more specific?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
    Disconnected. Out-of-sync. Deadened and discolored. This primarily happened, as Matt briefly mentioned, as a result of great psychological stress compounded by severe lack of positive feedback from others.
    Fascinating. Yes, I can see this.

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    Urban shaman Radiant Shadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alice144 View Post
    This is an interesting idea, but would you mind being a little bit more specific?
    Note the top three functions:

    Ni is a worldview simulator. It can extrapolate endlessly upon itself at whim.
    Fe is a moral/social executive. It builds and enforces systems of social protocols.
    Ti is basically a set of scales weighing logical purity. It compares and contrasts the tangible to see what works best.

    Disclaimer: the following is just what I have observed in myself during periods of unbalanced Ni-Ti loops; your mileage may vary.

    When a Ni worldview is not fed by Fe to determine the best course of action for Human Concern X, it can (and will, in my experience) go wild and create all kinds of ideas and theories about the world that have no tangible manifestation. (Think of super hardcore conspiracy theorists.) Because Fe is on the Ignore List, Ti is the next thing called into action for evaluating effectiveness. But because it has no measurable effects to weigh and contrast, nothing to logically pin down and dissect, it will repeatedly shoot Ni's nonlinear ideas down as too far-fetched. Ni then generates more ideas to solve problem XYZ and the process repeats until the INFJ in question gets out of hir bedroom and actively engages the world.

    Is that what you were looking for?
    "Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds that you plant."

    Hope is an anytime wreath, hung as a noose for the naive and savored as a wine by the wise.





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  7. #7
    Community Member alice144's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
    Is that what you were looking for?
    Sweet! Well done, sir.

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    Regular Poster Thinkist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alice144 View Post
    Yeah. I know that this is not a new thread, but I couldn't find any 'answers' in the other ones I googled.

    Questions:

    1) Have you ever experienced an Ni/Ti loop? Did you feel 'schizoid', as this article suggests? Or rather, did you better fit the symptomology of avpd?
    2) What's so bad about an Ni/Ti loop? Isn't logical consistency good?
    4) Why do infjs repress their Fe in the first place?
    1) Not an Ni-Ti loop, but a Ti-Ni loop fits better. I can't say avpd fits, especially given the strength of Ti.
    2) If you're asking an ISTP like me, the obvious answer is "yes." Try asking them about introspection though, as Ti for INFJs is like Ni for ISTPs. For ISTPs, Se is lacking more than Fe. An ISTP may become insightful, but has a lack of real expeience.
    4) It's for all the same reasons as to why an ISTP would shun their Se: because they would rather stay introverted. Ti-Ni loops and other introverted loops seem to happen most often in people who heavily favor introversion, and I've probably gone through more Ti-Ni loopiness than most other ISTPs due to my heavy preference for introversion. However, by making judgements/perceptions internally, there is a lack of connection and experience with the external world.


    Why not bring a little more Se into the picture? That seems to be much more repressed than any of the other functions.

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  9. #9
    find wisdom, build hope. Trifoilum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alice144 View Post
    1) Have you ever experienced an Ni/Ti loop? Did you feel 'schizoid', as this article suggests? Or rather, did you better fit the symptomology of avpd?
    I suspect I am in the loop, somewhat, and yes; some parts does feel schizoid / avoidant. Or to be exact, the lack of Fe.
    This one here fits;

    • avoids occupational activities that involve significant interpersonal contact, because of fears of criticism, disapproval, or rejection;
    • shows restraint within intimate relationships because of the fear of being shamed or ridiculed;
    But this one is situational; how to say it without being a broken music box... my surroundings are unhealthy to my mental well being. But indeed, the trick is to evoke Se ('get out' more often) and Fe (and engage with people and the world more often, except that unhealthy surroundings..) to create a sort of external standards that is harmonious and balancing to the framework Ni and Ti has made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
    Note the top three functions:

    Ni is a worldview simulator. It can extrapolate endlessly upon itself at whim.
    Fe is a moral/social executive. It builds and enforces systems of social protocols.
    Ti is basically a set of scales weighing logical purity. It compares and contrasts the tangible to see what works best.

    Disclaimer: the following is just what I have observed in myself during periods of unbalanced Ni-Ti loops; your mileage may vary.

    When a Ni worldview is not fed by Fe to determine the best course of action for Human Concern X, it can (and will, in my experience) go wild and create all kinds of ideas and theories about the world that have no tangible manifestation. (Think of super hardcore conspiracy theorists.) Because Fe is on the Ignore List, Ti is the next thing called into action for evaluating effectiveness. But because it has no measurable effects to weigh and contrast, nothing to logically pin down and dissect, it will repeatedly shoot Ni's nonlinear ideas down as too far-fetched. Ni then generates more ideas to solve problem XYZ and the process repeats until the INFJ in question gets out of hir bedroom and actively engages the world.

    Is that what you were looking for?
    This one here is a good explanation. However, this is but one direction (when everything is deflected around and nothing really works)
    There are another direction; one that I'm in. Namely 'shunning certain functions for the sake of another'. I'm going to explain it here...

    2) What's so bad about an Ni/Ti loop? Isn't logical consistency good?
    There are two keys:
    a) Ni and Ti loops creates a certain framework. -THAT- framework tend to be internal. The worse the loop are, the more external influences will be blocked and dismissed 'because they don't fit my framework / ideals / what I -see- as good'. Notice on the above that Ti deflects everything? Yes. That also happens here. "This is wrong; this isn't right; this doesn't fit!"

    b)the bad part isn't in creating the consistency as it is to maintain those.
    Tertiary loops are happening when we focus so much in maintaining our consistency, we forgot to engage with the world.... You know, in a 'I just cleaned my room here so I won't open any cupboards, touch any surfaces, and let anyone inside because THEY WILL WRECK MY ROOM AGAIN AND NO FUCK NO'
    3) Is belcs right in that undeveloped Fe has less to do with a personality defect, and more to do with "working through your problems"?
    It......sort of is. The definition of working through one's problems is quite complex in the first place.
    4) Why do infjs repress their Fe in the first place?
    In my case, it's because the surroundings aren't healthy.
    Fe (or at least -my- Fe) works as much as a sponge as it is a messenger. As they go outside to express their thoughts, ideas, and values -- They also absorb the surroundings' emotions, values, social cues.
    When the INFJs in question realizes that 'hey, my surroundings is bad for my mental health (for various reason, whether it's toxicity, incompatible ideas, conflict prone, or potentially swaying / tempting us to sway)', the quickest way to remain 'sane' (that is, to protect our Ti / the framework of 'truths' we're making and to keep our Ni / perspective of the world 'pristine') is to withdraw.
    This can mean physically withdrawing (Se) or emotionally / socially withdrawing (Fe)
    Last edited by Trifoilum; 18-06-12 at 06:38 AM.
    Come on, let's go on a journey, emptying our pockets.
    Carrying our indecent feelings along with us.

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    Regular Poster Thinkist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trifoilum View Post
    Tertiary loops are happening when we focus so much in maintaining our consistency, we forgot to engage with the world.... You know, in a 'I just cleaned my room here so I won't open any cupboards, touch any surfaces, and let anyone inside because THEY WILL WRECK MY ROOM AGAIN AND NO FUCK NO'
    Not for Extroverts, who forget to develop their deep end.

    Nice post. ISTPs will definitely identify with this.

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    find wisdom, build hope. Trifoilum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkist View Post
    Not for Extroverts, who forget to develop their deep end.

    Nice post. ISTPs will definitely identify with this.
    Oh, yes; I'm talking about tertiary Ni Ti loops; which indeed translated as 'logical consistency'.
    Come on, let's go on a journey, emptying our pockets.
    Carrying our indecent feelings along with us.

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    Regular Poster Thinkist's Avatar
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    Combined with rigid Ni idealism. It's weird, like all loops.

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  13. #13
    What do you mean, I can change my Usertitle LucyJr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alice144 View Post
    1) Have you ever experienced an Ni/Ti loop? Did you feel 'schizoid', as this article suggests? Or rather, did you better fit the symptomology of avpd?
    Yes, I have experienced it and its awesome. It basicaly sort out the confusing aspect of Ni, making a sense out of it.
    I'm more of a Ti than a Fe INFJ. I use heavily Ti, sometimes I try to use it more than Ni. It appears to me that all INFJs thinkers and famous philosophers, or mathematicians were INFJs who used their Ti.
    I never felt schizoid in any sense.

    2) What's so bad about an Ni/Ti loop? Isn't logical consistency good?
    To me its nothing bad, its actualy pretty good. INFJs who only use Ni are pretty much often delusional in their thinking, with a contradictory thinking. Somehow they are very correct in some things, and absurd and false in other things. This is because they only intuit, they don't verifiy their inuitive insights with logical principles.
    Interesting enough, INTJs also use Ni primarely, but they are never lost "in their own world", like INFJs can be. They have a much more firm foot in the objective world, and a more strong sense of common sense. Is it because they have secondary Te?

    4) Why do infjs repress their Fe in the first place?
    it depends. I think some INFJs enjoy being alone, others have a certain social anxiety developed from when they were childrens.
    Its hard to be responsible...but its very empowering. It strengthens the will and shapes the character.

    There is this paradox in pride—it makes some men ridiculous, but prevents others from becoming so. - Colton

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