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Thread: Jesus said "No one can come to the Father except through me". Discuss.923 days ago

  1. #21
    Community Member Altruistic Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acd View Post
    Why is hell necessary?
    Why would an all powerful and loving God create such a place to keep people for eternity?
    If God is all-knowing, why create people who will just end up there anyway?
    Is it truly free will to base a decision on faith out of fear of the unknown?
    Are unbelievers truly choosing hell, seeing as how there is no evidence for God's existence to make an informed decision?

    I would be asking those questions instead of what the only way to enter heaven, is.
    I believe that God wants everyone to return to Him. But, because of free will, some people will choose earthly pleasures over spiritual fulfilment. It's just what matters to different people. I'm not a burning fires of hell believer, that's inconsistent with the Bible anyway (the Bible mentions Hades on several occassions, but as Abraham is there, I think it's safe to say this is the just the place where people were put before Christ... dying was not existing.) but I would suggest that hell is a separation from God. Not that God is every not completely there, because he is everywhere. But he can't or won't help you there. Anyway, the point is, someone who chose earthly things, wouldn't want to be with God anyway!

    I'm not sure about choosing faith out of fear of the unknown, but that's a bit of an ignorant way of looking at things. I have always believed in God just because that's how I am, it's never been particularly forced on me, but regardless of external factors, I've always pursued it. So genuinely, my faith is all about loving God, not fear of the unknown. If people enter into it through fear and not love, they're getting the wrong end of the stick.

    Re choosing hell, I think that God asks for faith not logic. One of the easiest ways of confusing yourself into not believing is by making it all too complicated, and neccessitating evidence. I believe because it feels like the truth, simple as that. But, if Jesus is there when you die, (which is what I believe is the case), and you see Him and you choose not to follow Him, then yes I guess this would be choosing hell, wouldn't you agree?
    "Although we human beings have our own personal life, we are yet in large measure the representatives, the victims and promoters of a collective spirit whose years are counted in centuries. We can well think all our lives long that we are following our own noses, and may never discover that we are, for the most part, supernumeraries on the stage of the world theatre" (Jung)

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  2. #22
    Adrift Nixie's Avatar
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    What do I think is necessary to have a good and successful life? I belive in honor. I believe you have to accept responsibility for yourself and your actions. I believe that we are all inter-connected and there are circles within circles of understanding for each individual. I believe that your knowledge and wisdom grow with you when you choose to be actively involved in your beliefs rather than be complacent and let others tell you what you how and what you should believe. I believe you have to question and doubt to find faith and understanding. I am a Woman of the People. I live my life with the aim of being able to say "today is a good day to die"--a genuine belief that at any moment my life may end and I will have lived honorably and be ready to return to the Mother in peace. I believe that each moment of my life is mine own--I own it. I made those choices and I should be responsible for them.
    You can't blow up a coco puff

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  3. #23
    Community Member Altruistic Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormy1 View Post
    What do I think is necessary to have a good and successful life? I belive in honor. I believe you have to accept responsibility for yourself and your actions. I believe that we are all inter-connected and there are circles within circles of understanding for each individual. I believe that your knowledge and wisdom grow with you when you choose to be actively involved in your beliefs rather than be complacent and let others tell you what you how and what you should believe. I believe you have to question and doubt to find faith and understanding. I am a Woman of the People. I live my life with the aim of being able to say "today is a good day to die"--a genuine belief that at any moment my life may end and I will have lived honorably and be ready to return to the Mother in peace. I believe that each moment of my life is mine own--I own it. I made those choices and I should be responsible for them.
    Thanks Storm . It helps to understand other people's views and perspectives, and yours are interesting and worthy. Honour peace and wisdom are all good qualities and aims . Sounds like my sister's viewpoint. She's read a lot on Chinese and Japanese concepts of honour.
    "Although we human beings have our own personal life, we are yet in large measure the representatives, the victims and promoters of a collective spirit whose years are counted in centuries. We can well think all our lives long that we are following our own noses, and may never discover that we are, for the most part, supernumeraries on the stage of the world theatre" (Jung)

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  4. #24
    What do you mean, I can change my Usertitle acd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altruistic Muse View Post
    I believe that God wants everyone to return to Him. But, because of free will, some people will choose earthly pleasures over spiritual fulfilment. It's just what matters to different people. I'm not a burning fires of hell believer, that's inconsistent with the Bible anyway (the Bible mentions Hades on several occassions, but as Abraham is there, I think it's safe to say this is the just the place where people were put before Christ... dying was not existing.) but I would suggest that hell is a separation from God. Not that God is every not completely there, because he is everywhere. But he can't or won't help you there. Anyway, the point is, someone who chose earthly things, wouldn't want to be with God anyway!

    I'm not sure about choosing faith out of fear of the unknown, but that's a bit of an ignorant way of looking at things. I have always believed in God just because that's how I am, it's never been particularly forced on me, but regardless of external factors, I've always pursued it. So genuinely, my faith is all about loving God, not fear of the unknown. If people enter into it through fear and not love, they're getting the wrong end of the stick.

    Re choosing hell, I think that God asks for faith not logic. One of the easiest ways of confusing yourself into not believing is by making it all too complicated, and neccessitating evidence. I believe because it feels like the truth, simple as that. But, if Jesus is there when you die, (which is what I believe is the case), and you see Him and you choose not to follow Him, then yes I guess this would be choosing hell, wouldn't you agree?
    My unbelief has nothing to do with choosing earthly pleasures over heaven.
    I don't believe because I have too many questions that can't be answered.. because they require me to just believe. Personally, I find that a dangerous way to go about life.
    I think it's odd that God requires faith, yet He gave us brains and senses to reason with--logic is what makes us human.
    I think hell exists as a way to terrorize people into not questioning or disbelieving, I think it 'exists' just to make people afraid.
    But that is the way I see it.

    But, if Jesus is there when you die, (which is what I believe is the case), and you see Him and you choose not to follow Him, then yes I guess this would be choosing hell, wouldn't you agree?
    Is that the way it works?
    Last edited by acd; 22-02-12 at 07:57 PM.

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  5. #25
    Community Member Altruistic Muse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acd View Post
    My unbelief has nothing to do with choosing earthly pleasures over heaven.
    I don't believe because I have too many questions that can't be answered.. because they require me to just believe. Personally, I find that a dangerous way to go about life.
    I think it's odd that God requires faith, yet He gave us brains and senses to reason with--logic is what makes us human.
    I think hell exists as a way to terrorize people into not questioning or disbelieving, I think it 'exists' just to make people afraid.
    But that is the way I see it.


    Is that the way it works?
    As there is no evidence, and no biblical back up that I can see, I'm going to neither agree nor disagree with you on the hell front. Most of what is said about hell is Church-based, I think, a lot of it came from scare mongering of the catholic Church. I do believe that there are ways of not ending up with God, as there is support for this.

    Ha, well, the thread is about your second question! I don't know. It's my belief that this is the case, and I don't see any scripture of Jesus' own saying that this is untrue. I think it's very difficult to love unconditionally when you've got a question in the back of your head about whether this person is "saved" etc. Jesus loved everyone, regardless. I think so did people like Mother Theresa, and Desmond Tutu. They're concerned with the love they are giving out, and not the condemnation. Therefore I choose to interpret what Jesus says in that He's there at death, if you haven't found Him by then.
    "Although we human beings have our own personal life, we are yet in large measure the representatives, the victims and promoters of a collective spirit whose years are counted in centuries. We can well think all our lives long that we are following our own noses, and may never discover that we are, for the most part, supernumeraries on the stage of the world theatre" (Jung)

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  6. #26
    no chocolate flavored gum? wow JGirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altruistic Muse View Post
    I see it a similar way . But if you are a Baptist, that's a church that are Bible-believing and literalist. How do they take your viewpoint? I will say that the Bible at no stage professes to be literal, and it doesn't profess to be the only means of accessing the Father. I am trying to work out when both of these beliefs came into being, as I know it wasn't always the case...
    well they really didn't agree with it to put it mildly lol
    i am no longer a practicing christian, that is, i no longer follow an organized religion. i still try to practice the overall message of love and spiritual growth but i don't feel i need to be told how to do that any longer.
    there was a time when being involved in a fundamentalist religion was important and very good for me in my spiritual journey. i've moved on since then but i keep my experience close to my heart.

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  7. #27
    Time Lord Barnabas's Avatar
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    This conversation is so old, the questions, the conjecture, the interjections and replies are so old. It's funny the older the it gets the less people change in response to it.
    I believe That Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Lord. That he died Crucified for the Sins of mankind, and rose on the third day and after speaking for a while with his disciples ascended to Heaven to sit a at the right hand of the Father and will some day Return for the Judgement of sinners and mercy of believers and for the fulfillment of his kingdom.

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  8. #28
    What do you mean, I can change my Usertitle acd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    This conversation is so old, the questions, the conjecture, the interjections and replies are so old. It's funny the older the it gets the less people change in response to it.
    Perhaps there is a reason for all of that..

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  9. #29
    Lighten Up Francis! Sriracha's Avatar
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    I have a dumb question. In the Christian view physical death is death #1. Where do the deceased go? A holding tank? Death #2 is spiritual and it is decided there who and who will not reside with Christ.

    So in relation to the OP, all who die #1 physical death go to this "place" before Judgement Day. Which makes sense as to why the Mormons try to pray their deceased ancestors to accept Christ as their savior.

    I'm clueless. I don't attempt to get too lost into religion, b/c anytime I had in the past ... it only resulted in frustration.
    It's easy to find people with whom you have chemistry, but it's not easy to find someone to wipe your ass for you if you break both arms. Just sayin'. ~ Sriracha

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  10. #30
    What do you mean, I can change my Usertitle Kmal's Avatar
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    @Sriracha its like sleep, it says. h/o for scripture.
    John 11:1 And there was a certain one ailing, Lazarus, from Bethany, of the village of Mary and Martha her sister -- 2 and it was Mary who did anoint the Lord with ointment, and did wipe his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ailing -- 3 therefore sent the sisters unto him, saying, 'Sir, lo, he whom thou dost love is ailing;' 4 and Jesus having heard, said, 'This ailment is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.' 5 And Jesus was loving Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus, 6 when, therefore, he heard that he is ailing, then indeed he remained in the place in which he was two days, 7 then after this, he saith to the disciples, 'We may go to Judea again;' 8 the disciples say to him, 'Rabbi, now were the Jews seeking to stone thee, and again thou dost go thither!' 9 Jesus answered, 'Are there not twelve hours in the day? if any one may walk in the day, he doth not stumble, because the light of this world he doth see; 10 and if any one may walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him.' 11 These things he said, and after this he saith to them, 'Lazarus our friend hath fallen asleep, but I go on that I may awake him;' 12 therefore said his disciples, 'Sir, if he hath fallen asleep, he will be saved;' 13 but Jesus had spoken about his death, but they thought that about the repose of sleep he speaketh. 14 Then, therefore, Jesus said to them freely, 'Lazarus hath died; 15 and I rejoice, for your sake, (that ye may believe,) that I was not there; but we may go to him;' 16 therefore said Thomas, who is called Didymus, to the fellow-disciples, 'We may go -- we also, that we may die with him,'

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, 14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, 15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, 16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; 18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.


    Last edited by Kmal; 25-02-12 at 04:01 AM.

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  11. #31
    Community Member Altruistic Muse's Avatar
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    @The Doctor . Sorry to have bored you.
    "Although we human beings have our own personal life, we are yet in large measure the representatives, the victims and promoters of a collective spirit whose years are counted in centuries. We can well think all our lives long that we are following our own noses, and may never discover that we are, for the most part, supernumeraries on the stage of the world theatre" (Jung)

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  12. #32
    Schrödinger's Pussy Saru Inc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acd View Post
    Why is hell necessary?
    Why would an all powerful and loving God create such a place to keep people for eternity?
    If God is all-knowing, why create people who will just end up there anyway?
    Is it truly free will to base a decision on faith out of fear of the unknown?
    Are unbelievers truly choosing hell, seeing as how there is no evidence for God's existence to make an informed decision?

    I would be asking those questions instead of what the only way to enter heaven, is.

    I've thought about this for a long time also. But I don't really have an answer.

    God is all knowing, and God is love, but God is also just. If he makes a rule and you break it, then you face the consequences. And in the bible it states this:
    I Corinthians 10:13
    No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it

    So in this is the closest I can think of to your answer. Satan gives us temptation, and God gives us options. I believe it truly is our choice to choose, and that is not something God has ever chosen for us. (although many do disagree on that point.) God doesn't give birth to Atheists/Wiccans/Buddhists/Muslims/Mormons, the World does. For every child is in the womb innocent, but once born is clothed in the original sin of the world. And it is up to each of us to find the truth that only Jesus can provide. Somepeople believe they find the truth else where, for Satan knows that the best way to make web of lies, is to use strings of truth.

    That being said, when I was a child I was always distressed about the indigenous jungle tribes of the Amazon that never before have heard of Jesus. I always wondered, if they died, would they go to heaven? Perhaps God knows that if they were to learn of Jesus they would follow him, and for that they go to heaven. Or if in their hearts they would have been hard to him, and then they go to hell.

    I still think about this.

    I should read my Bible more.
    Gangway, mine eyes - mine keep.

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  13. #33
    N0. purplecrayons's Avatar
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    It is my belief that we are only saved from our sins under the blood of Christ. We are held responsible for them otherwise. "The wages of sin is death."
    "Don't let anyone else disturb your peace of mind." ~my sweet Honey Badger

    -demand nothing. give all.

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  14. #34
    almost there just me's Avatar
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    We must be fully persuaded. The word "be fully persuaded" denotes the highest conviction, not a matter of opinion or prejudice, but a matter on which the mind is made up by examination. Our minds do have that ability to use our cognitive functions to derive at a final decision: "decision" meaning "to bring about an end to something".

    Surely we question and investigate. We study and we read. We listen and we think. We use our minds to reach that pinnacle of rest. We no longer struggle. We have made up our mind! ...and what minds we have.

    It took centuries for the Bible, as a whole, to be assembled to have the physical and conceptual stability it now possesses. Constantine should not be held responsible for the likes of Paul, Jerome, Paulinus, Augustine, scribes, monks, and others that spent decades of their lifetimes writing and translating old texts. The fourth century did not have a Bible as a whole work to read: it was being assembled. Augustine stated each of the people that had something to do with writing the Bible were God's agents. Yes, there were the Prophets, The Talmud, the epistles, Revelations, the Gospels; but, they were not yet placed together.

    I, too, care for those of other religions. I care for those who have no religion. I care because I have studied and know for certain I should care. I have been called to care. Shall I not make intercession and pray prayers for those that do not fall into the Christian
    way, the truth, and the light? I do. Shall I not have compassion on the ones I see lacking in my beliefs? Shall I not try to save that one lost sheep? I have the mind of Christ. I cannot help but think of it. I shall plead with my God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit for all: it is my calling.

    Hence, others that do not believe as I do should not put me down for my beliefs; nor should they put down the scriptures if they do. I do not boast with pride, but plead with sorrow.


    Let every person be fully persuaded(stole that out of context, but it flies here). Let no man be highminded. Let all men be thankful.

    I therefore plead with the Almighty every day. I feel there is no way I am alone, so we plead with the Almighty every day.

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  15. #35
    Time Lord Barnabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altruistic Muse View Post
    @The Doctor . Sorry to have bored you.
    You don't bore me, nor does the conversation, once upon a time and not with out temptation now I would have dove in and offered my insights, but the truth of the conversation is that it will go nowhere. It's simply old and rehashed, the same question, the same answers, followed by the same debate, followed by the same inconclusion based on a difference in theology or lack there of.
    I believe That Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Lord. That he died Crucified for the Sins of mankind, and rose on the third day and after speaking for a while with his disciples ascended to Heaven to sit a at the right hand of the Father and will some day Return for the Judgement of sinners and mercy of believers and for the fulfillment of his kingdom.

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  16. #36
    Similes are like songs in love Matt3737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Doctor View Post
    You don't bore me, nor does the conversation, once upon a time and not with out temptation now I would have dove in and offered my insights, but the truth of the conversation is that it will go nowhere. It's simply old and rehashed, the same question, the same answers, followed by the same debate, followed by the same inconclusion based on a difference in theology or lack there of.
    It isn't typical until flaming begins. Otherwise it's quite unusual and interesting.
    Logic is equivalent with pi in that it recurrently divides, discerns, and distinguishes irrationally, yet is useful by approximation.

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  17. #37
    Time Lord Barnabas's Avatar
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    We'er pretty good about not flaming here, it's more of just a repeated conversation.
    I believe That Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Lord. That he died Crucified for the Sins of mankind, and rose on the third day and after speaking for a while with his disciples ascended to Heaven to sit a at the right hand of the Father and will some day Return for the Judgement of sinners and mercy of believers and for the fulfillment of his kingdom.

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  18. #38
    What do you mean, I can change my Usertitle Apone's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that it means that only Christians can get into heaven. It's not exactly an effective agent of social control if you let people think that they can find the answer elsewhere, is it? It's also a typical tactic employed by the other great cults-- cut people off from the non-believers by convincing them that everyone else is evil and to be feared… or, if possible, converted. Only you are the righteous and the worthy and we must fight against those who would destroy us by taking their lands and making them like us or at the very least subservient to our wishes and to… uhh…. God.

    I know that not all Christians are like this nowadays, but that's mostly because Christianity has sort of been diluted into various sects and do-it-yourself spiritualities that are basically clinging on to the least absurd scraps using excuses like 'it's a metaphor' and concocting obscure interpretations that struggle to find ground in the reality that has long since rendered them obsolete… you might as well be studying Star Wars or The Wizard Of Oz.

    This might come off as me trolling because I suppose it's upsetting for some people to have their beliefs challenged, but that's how I see it.

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  19. #39
    Time Lord Barnabas's Avatar
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    oh never mind, there's the flaming
    I believe That Jesus is the Christ, my Savior and Lord. That he died Crucified for the Sins of mankind, and rose on the third day and after speaking for a while with his disciples ascended to Heaven to sit a at the right hand of the Father and will some day Return for the Judgement of sinners and mercy of believers and for the fulfillment of his kingdom.

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  20. #40
    Banned InvisibleJim's Avatar
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    I saw this:



    And thought of this thread.

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